I am a total WASP - my family had conversations about schools and majors…
Me too, toowonderful. Schools and potential majors were not off limits with us either. I’m not sure how you can speak for “Normal American culture”, Pizzagirl. Every family is different.
A former supervisor at a startup and engineering graduate recounted having a WASP colleague from a multi-generationed Princeton family whose father was not only insistent he went to Princeton(graduated sometime in the early-mid '70s) or he’ll not only decline to pay for college, but also disinherit and banish him from the family.
Son complied by attending Princeton, but stood his ground when the father expressed strong disapproval for son’s interest in engineering as it was considered “too blue-collar/common” for him and his social circle. Father actually felt his son should have been like him and majored in a humanities/social science field like others from their upper-class social circle.
Supervisor worked with him at an engineering technology company sometime in the late '70s/early 80s.
And just like any anecdotal examples from any culture, it is only one example. Luckily, most families of any culture, living in America, do not seem to threaten to “banish and disinherit” a child .
Agreed. That’s the extreme case I use to show that there are “Tiger” parents obsessed with their kids attending Ivies/elite Us…including particular ones among non-recent immigrant American families.
If only the anecdotes were believable…
The table @ucbalumnus posted in #93. The majors whose incomes were noted as not moving much- nursing and IT.
Not sure why anecdotes aren’t believable @jym626 - but then some people don’t like to hear things that go against their perceived viewpoint. To me - anecdotes, including my own, serve as illustrations that there are exceptions. So the broad, sweeping claims of the superiorityinvincibility of STEM majors don’t hold water. But STEM people don’t want to hear it.
PG can, and has, answered your question better than I, @toowonderful. Its just not believable that so many supposed people tell these often quite personal stories so often to someone they may or may not know all that well, that supposedly gets relayed to a former supervisor’s colleague and it magically somehow tangentially relates to some aspect of so very many threads. Just not likely to be true. We all have some personal anecdotes, but not the many, many ones that are supposedly shared to strangers’ friends’ cousins former coworkers. I know I dont talk about my family’s past personal college choices with coworkers who would then share this story with some supervisor who would then share it with a friend somewhere and it would be a story that … somehow gets relayed third or fourth hand and somehow fits with some thread topic with remarkable frequency. Personal, firsthand experiences are more likely to be believable.
And yes, agree that many majors lead to successful careers-- hence my referencing the table that @ucbalumnus posted in # 93. And yes, mentioned that IT was in fact not a major that progressed as many other degree/majors. If you haven’t had a chance to look at the table, its quite enlightening.
Just a speculation here regarding why IT, unlike Computer Science or Computer Engineering, was not a major that progressed well: IT jobs happened to be ones that the large business here in the US decided to outsource the most – often almost in the wholesale style: the whole division’s work, except maybe for a few top managers, was shipped overseas to an outsource company which might also transplant their workers into the US, with the help of our pro-business leaders into the US.
Last time I read it, it seems even that IT workers who worked in the division in California’s EDD which are responsible for printing/handling our unemployment checks actually work for such outsource companies which sent their workers into our government office. It is ironic but it is a productive way to do the business maybe according to what is taught in our business school.
The jobs are still needed. Just in the process of pursuing the productivity, other people “eat our lunch.”
As regarding the nursing jobs, I think that in some years at least, the big, bad (meaning “powerful” as a business) health care business also imported many overseas nurses also. Again, the jobs are still there. It is the supply (of the workers) that have been increased.
Maybe the next step is that our patients will be asked to go overseas (medical tourism) to receive health care unless it is an emergency. Everything becomes more productive – The most importance thong in today’s world is that the share holders are happy (which then resulted in fatter reward for the executives.)
The labor does not have much bargaining power any more in this globalized world, and whoever owning the capital is the king – that may be the reason why the greatest percentage of the graduates from our elite colleges (maybe including quite a many engineering types from MIT) join those on the Wall Street to become a part of “movie moving” business – We may still be very competitive in this money moving business in this globalized world.
Another bright spot in business may be our military technology/arms sale business. The more chaotic this world becomes, the better this business is. – our “money printing” business may also become more secured. Which country in the world could be in such an enviable position of being in the money printing business? We just need to trickle down some of the profits to a little bit more common citizens so that the size and number of our jails will not keep increasing, or prevent our those “have-nots” become (what is a popular term today?) “radicalized.”
Re: IT major
The likely reason IT majors do not do that well is that the special skills are not that hard to learn. IT as a college major is mostly a common business major, with a few low-level computing courses (nowhere near as in-depth as what a CS major takes). So the IT major graduate has what is essentially a common business major plus some low-level computing skills that are relatively easy for others to learn and therefore compete in the job market.
That is also likely why IT departments tend to fight losing battles against crackers. Not only do they have the disadvantage of being on defense, but their skill levels in the technical areas are typically far lower than the best skilled crackers.
It’s not just nursing. My radiologist works in Chennai. Apparently you don’t need to touch the patient in order to decipher a film and diagnose a cyst.
There’s also a wide variability regarding the computer technology content and rigor of IT degree programs ranging from ones which barely teach one how to manage a Windows box even as an end user to programs which are close to comparable to respectable CS programs.
The intro CS class for non-majors/IT minors(They called it “Third-Stream” when I attended) at my LAC had some programming content. However, it only covered the first 2-3 weeks worth of programming material one would find in the very first intro CS course for majors.
A couple of years ago, if I remember it correctly, a major hospital in New York outsourced its radiology business (to some rural state? Not sure here.) It stopped its radiology residency program and all of the residents in that program were let go before they finished the training. An analogy is that students enter a college and they were let go because the college closes the door before they graduate. Not sure whether some other programs who are sympathetic to tje misfortune of these trainees picked them up.
Anyone who claims that the STEM kids are smarter than the Humanities kids is just being close minded about what smart means. If they mean that they’re better at doing analytical type tasks, I’d agree that most of the STEM kids are probably stronger, on average. And I don’t mean literary analysis, I mean the type of analysis required in designing complex systems.
I don’t see how that’s even debatable. That’s what the STEM kids practice for four years in college, and that’s what they have to show an aptitude for to get into one of the college STEM programs.
There are clearly some very smart people who couldn’t analyze a complex engineering system if their life depended on it, but those are often the same people who can write an essay or a speech that makes your jaw drop. I have two friends like that. They can both write something amazing in one hour that I wouldn’t be able to write if I had a week to finish, with a coach. I did a STEM major, they did liberal arts.
I think what scares parents is the uncertainty with the non-STEM majors. I have no experience with it at all, but I’m guessing that the kids entering the Humanities programs have a less specific idea of what kind of job they’ll end up in when they get out. Maybe I’m wrong. I would love to hear from some Humanities majors about that.
For example, if you study Accounting, you’re probably thinking you’ll end up in one of two places - an Accounting department of a business that has an Accounting department (basically any company in any sector of the economy), or at an Accounting firm. The specific company or industry might not be predetermined, but the type of job is.
I think the number of jobs is a little easier to ascertain too. “How many Accountants are out of work these days” is easier to get a handle on than “How many English majors are out of work these days” Yes, you can do some research, like the research shown earlier in this thread, but it’s much easier to call all of your friends who are Accountants to see how healthy they think the field is than it is to call all of your English major friends to see how that field is doing. I don’t even know which of my friends studied English, and the “field” is sort of dispersed and hard to get a handle on. So for the Humanities, you might have to rely more on data like the PayScale data, which might be less accurate than the opinion of people working in the field in a specific city.
To many parents, there’s a lot of uncertainty there. Does that mean you should take an English kid and try to turn him into an Accountant. No way! But I think it explains why parents get nervous. @ucbalumnus made a good point about the PayScale data. It shows that the low end of the STEM fields is safer than the Humanities, financially. That’s reassuring to parents. They know they don’t have to worry about the kid really struggling in the early years.
I think it gets most interesting when you have a kid who can go either way. A kid who has the Math and Science skills to do a STEM major, but who is passionate about a subject in the Humanities or Social Sciences. Oh boy. Talk about the aunts and the uncles getting involved 
The whole extended family can get in an uproar over one of those.
I’m not even sure what advice I would give a parent in that situation, but I think it’s the only situation I would even consider meddling in. The pure Arts and Humanities kids - you have to let them do their thing. You’re never going to turn them into a STEM kid. I say encourage them, and help them find a career that matches their skills. I would encourage them to start thinking about career paths very early on. The one friend I have that I know was an English major, ended up in a Purchasing department at a manufacturing company. For all I know she loves it, but I don’t think that’s what she envisioned when she was studying the Classics at college.
Do you really think the average kid majoring in bio, chem, physics, etc has a better idea of where they want to end up than a kid majoring in English, anthropology, sociology, etc?
I don’t. Most STEM degrees do not lead to specific jobs just like most humanities degrees do not. Accounting, engineering- yes, they’re more specific, but they are not representative of all STEM fields (and, to be honest, I personally wouldn’t put accounting in STEM but I guess it could go under the “M” part).
As far as aunts and uncles getting involved- especially in an uproar-, I think to most (though certainly not all) American families, would come off as strange. We place an ungodly amount of emphasis on the nuclear family in this country and so for extended family to be heavily involved seems out of place. Do I doubt that it happens in some families? No, absolutely not.
@romanigypsyeyes, not trying to be confrontational, but I do think the average bio, chem, or physics major has a better idea where they want to end up. They may not end up there, but I think they plan to. Most kids I knew who were doing those majors were PreMed or PreDental. I don’t think my English major friend thought she was PrePurchasing.
It is true that a lot of the Philosophy and History majors are preLaw. That’s very specific.
I’m not trying to disparage the non-STEM majors. I just think it’s easier to put off career planning with a lot of those majors. Not that there’s anything wrong with exploring for a while. I would just get nervous if I were paying 60K per year, and I had a kid approaching graduation with no specific career plans.
It’s not exclusive to non-STEM majors. I agree with you about that. I think many of the pure Math majors are probably just following their passion, with no specific plans. I have no data to back that up. It’s just the sense I get. Actually, on the STEM side, Math and Physics are the two that are probably the least specific as far as career path.
As far as family involvement goes, I think it would be weird if aunts and uncles thought they actually had a say in things, but I think it’s nice if they care to the point of expressing their opinion, as long as it’s done in way that shows concern, and not in a meddling, controlling way.
Eggshells (love your name by the way)… do you seriously think that every math major becomes a mathematician? Or that every bio major becomes (or is even qualified to become) a biologist?
Kids who are good in math default to math majors because- well, they’re good in math. Like the comparative lit majors. Kids who think they are going to med school major in bio out of a mistaken belief that this makes them a shoo-in for med school admissions. They slog their way through organic chemistry or grit their teeth while they take an easier version of physics than the engineers have to take and then fancy themselves scientists.
I’m not knocking science. But the labor market operates with factors and inputs beyond the control of a parent. How is that plan looking right now to have your kid major in petroleum engineering? How did it feel to graduate as a finance major in 2009 when the banks pulled in the welcome mats? What was it like to be graduating with a major in CS in 2002?
These things are cyclical and nobody wants to believe that their kid could end up at the bottom of a cycle. Guess what- you can’t predict the labor market four years ahead of time.
Are there ways for a kid to make him/herself MORE employable, even in a down market? Of course. But nobody wants to learn that- it’s easier to bash the philosophy majors then to stretch your mind around some practical (and intellectually challenging) ways that a kid can better the odds.
I’m not sure that having an incorrect idea about where you’ll end up is really any better than not having a specific idea at all.
Those kids who think they’re premed but don’t end up in med school–I don’t see them as having better prospects than a humanities major. B
I really don’t think the average STEM kid has any more of a clue where s/he wants to end up than the average humanities kid. Yeah, they all might have dreams and desires but they also have to deal with real employment conditions. Frankly, most people simply don’t end up where they envisioned themselves when they were 18.
These discussions always fascinate me because it’s bizarre to me to think of these fields as separate entities as though there is little to no cross-over. That’s simply not how it works. Sociology majors often learn high level math. Biology majors often learn history. The list goes on. The American educational system works in a liberal arts fashion- we’re not like many other places in the world where you go and only learn your “field.”
Plus, even those of us who highly specialize in a field have a lot of overlap. I am very good at math but I have zero interest in being a mathematician. Instead, I am a historian. A historian who works with big data and specializes in Science, Technology, and Society studies- a huge field filled with every possibly discipline you can think of that is growing rapidly. I use rigorous mathematical methods in my work and often collaborate with individuals in a wide variety of fields. Why? Because the world is interdisciplinary and, thankfully IMO, we’re moving towards that in higher education and in the world more broadly.
So all of this is to say that your major really (usually) means nothing in the grand scheme of things. It’s the skills you learn. I think grouping kids by their “major” is a useless practice. Your major doesn’t get you a job- your skills, experiences, and (sometimes) connections do.
Well, my Engineering major husband loved his major. But after a few years of being an actual engineer, he decided to go to law school. He says, during his undergrad days, he never would have thought he’d end up practicing law.