<p>But, it is also easier to be in the top 1% at a public high school, so the reality may be choosing between top 1% at one high school and top 10% at a more selective high school. The impact of those two situations on college admissions is not so clear cut.</p>
<p>I think it is true that the top kids at both top-notch public and private schools go on to top colleges. However, for my DS, private school ensured he would be in the top of his class. At a public school, he would have faded into the great quiet middle. He would have gotten by with just adequate grades and would not have attracted much attention as he is not a troublemaker. In his private school class of 25, he rose to the top. He has excelled academically, has played sports because it was required, and came to love lacrosse, and became an expert in stage management, lights, and sound and has worked on over a dozen productions. Private school gave him those choices and made him a leader.
Another important point is that, in some places, public school is never a consideration because of the poor quality of the schools. Living in Boston, which has abysmal schools, my choice was to move out of the city or to send DS to private school.</p>
<p>I do not have any specific information about which of the two students with identical test scores but from different high schools would be preferred by admissions counselors at different colleges. But I would tend to agree with the principle exemplified by spikemom. If you are really considering which of two high schools a specific child should attend, you cannot simply assume that the child will apply the same level of exertion, do the same outside reading, participate in the same extracurricular activities, etc., independent of which school is attended. Just as a college student who is able to stay focused and achieve excellent grades in a science or engineering program at a state university may have just as many opportunities for graduate or professional school as one who attends an Ivy League school, a student who works just as hard at a less-demanding high school will likely achieve a comparable amount of accomplishments. The difficulty is in determining ahead of time which of your kids would have the self-discipline and self-motivation to work just as hard at the two schools. Among my 4 kids, I am confident that one falls into this category, have hopes for another, and am convinced that the two others really need others to spur them on. We homeschool, so it mostly affects me in selecting an appropriate college. But we are very likely going to send our youngest (now in 6th grade) to private school next year, because she seems to, for whatever reason, need other kids to spur her on. I do not look at this as any type of moral deficiency in my daughter. It is simply a personality thing. But not all kids are the same – even from the same family. Unfortunately, we have to use an educated guess ahead of time. If possible , you may be able to try both schooling situations (very competitive and less competitive) before it really counts (e.g. middle school), but even then it is an imperfect predictor.</p>
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<p>I have to agree with this. The kids who may be at a disadvantaged are the ones who go to a very competitive private or public school and are not in the top 10% but may be in the top 11-50%.</p>
<p>I must agree with interesteddad and ellemenope. My boys go to a very selective public state governor’s school (10% admit rate), my daughter is at the local public high school, which is said to still be top notch. There is absolutely no comparison in the workload, but you’d never know it from the college talk. All schools look at the child within the context of thier high school; the recs ask how the student compares to others the teacher has taught. At governor’s school, a 4.0 is not enough to get into the state schools, only AP and DE classes are weighted. At the public HS, all honors classes are weighted. So, as many incredibly talented, would be top 2% if they had gone to their local public high school governor’s school kids find out, they pay a very high price for all of their hard work. They work so much harder but are still only at the middle of the pack, instead of being the superstars had they taken the easier route. The decision from our experience comes down to the choice of better preparation and stimulation for college or easier acceptance into college but a tough time once you’re there.</p>
<p>Actually, being in the top 1% at a public high school is not easier. The caliber of the students at the public high school will determine how easy it is. At my son’s high school at least 50 out of a graduating class of approximately 400 have extraordinarily high SAT scores, take all Honors and numerous AP classes, and have exceptional EC’s. His school is one of the top hs’s in the state. The school uses a numerical GPA and the difference between No. 1 and No. 25 is only a point or so. As you can see, no. 25 is not in the top 1%. Only nos. 1 to 4 are in the top 1%. I can testify, knowing all these kids, that the real intellectual differences between them are not correlated with their class rank and that the differences are miniscule at best. Unfortunately, the myth about public high schools can be harmful for the graduates of these competitive, demanding schools. Having looked at the college acceptances of this high school over the past 7 years, I can say that every year only 10 or so students go to the top 10 universites and LAC’s, and another 25 or so go the next 10 to 15. How much of this is the result of insufficient financial aid, I don’t know. At several comparable private schools, the numbers going to the top schools is sufficiently greater. I know that my son’s high school has an excellent reputation among the top schools, but is it high enough? </p>
<p>I would like to challenge the belief that public school is easier. I also would like to add that these students get almost no assistance from guidance counselors in the college admissions process because these counselors are overwhelmed with testing and scheduling requirements.</p>
<p>I know we each talk of our individual experiences and so I understand what Sewbusy is saying from HER experience. However, it’s not my take on things from my own experiences. I don’t think public school is an “easier” route. You can rate this school and that school. I’m sure our public school doesn’t make any ratings list. But I can tell you that the most difficult level tracked classes were indeed challenging and a LOT of work…I recall my D averaging 4 hours per night and 10 on weekends. My kids wrote many extensive papers. I think there tends to be a “rating” here of kids who went to this or that school as if the school is an indicator of how “qualified” the kid is. Do you mean to think there are not very smart kids all over this country in all sorts of schools? The top kids in our high school could fare well in the top elite private prep schools but simply don’t attend them but they COULD. As I wrote before, the difference isn’t in which is an “easier” route, but simply there are less of this type of kid in our high school proportionately than at a prep school that is filled with kids like this. But the quality of kid is no different.</p>
<p>The idea mentioned in another post that kids coming from these “lesser” rated high schools are gonna have a tough time once they get to some elite college…I don’t agree with AT ALL. I’ll speak from personal experience and I understand that personal experiences vary and can appreciate that maybe this doesn’t fit with observations in your own local areas. One example…I’ll pull from my own family to be fair…D1 goes to an Ivy League school. She went to a no name public rural high school where 66% go onto college. She was val. She took the most rigorous courseload available and then some. She is VERY well prepared for the very challenging coursework at her college. In fact, I often read on here how kids at much higher rated high schools take all these AP classes that teach to the exam, etc. My daughter had to read from primary sources and write numerous papers over the years. She is not struggling at her Ivy at all. It is challenging but she is exceling. This past semester, for example, in a class of 100 in one course, they took an exam that had essay questions on it. One day in class, the professor chose one exam essay as standing out and being what he was looking for. It was my D’s exam. And my D was always very strong at math and science and this was in humanities. I bet if I posted her verbal or writing SAT score, someone would not be overly impressed. Well, she’s doing great at her school and this wasn’t the only elite college she was admitted to either. She was certainly prepared and her high school years were anything but easy in terms of academics, and this is not even counting on top of a very heavy extracurricular load both in HS and in college. </p>
<p>D2, I could say the same…well prepared. She only attended high school for three years and still got into very selective BFA programs that accept anywhere between 4-9% of applicants. The one she ended up at, is also a competitive school academically, where she was chosen as one of 15 Scholars in her school within the university, and also won a large scholarship that is unrelated to being a Scholar. She also is doing very well in her program and is quite prepared. I won’t get into the artistic aspect, but on an academic front…in her writing course in the liberal arts part of her program, where the word often is that it’s “challenging”…I believe she got one of the highest grades of anyone and her professor told her that her writing stood out as one of the best she has seen in the course. </p>
<p>I’m sharing those vignettes as examples…because my kids (or anyone else’s) are who they are, no matter WHICH high school they attended. They very well could have gone to some “best high school” but they didn’t. They didn’t have an easier time in high school. There simply are less kids like them at the high school but I venture to say that the classes they took at our high school had very bright and involved students in them and many have gone on to do great things, alongside kids from some of your very highly rated high schools. We just can’t say our ENTIRE high school went off in that direction. But clearly we have several kids who have done so and even several more who ended up going to the state university (cost, etc.) who also excel academically and otherwise. I truly don’t think these kids are “struggling” or having a “tougher time” once they get to the selective colleges they are at. I also interview candidates in this region (from many different rural public high schools) for a selective university. I have met some EXCEPTIONAL students. They have worked VERY hard and their academics are NOT easy and they also have exceled outside the classroom. </p>
<p>I think the differences, therefore, are in how many kids of a certain type are at some public high schools, and some private schools. The other difference is the kind of experience in each learning environment that exists. I’m sure at an elite prep school, all of the courses are very challenging and the school is full of motivated students. At our rural public, the student body is not all motivated and not all of the courses are challenging but the top kids are very bright and motivated and the highest level courses are indeed quite demanding and challenging. In the end, a certain type of student is going to achieve no matter the “rating” of his or her high school. I think to generalize that kids from one type of high school are “lesser” qualified in some way or had an easier time in high school, is not true. The learning environments and student bodies as a whole do differ. But it is still the student who gets into college and a student from anywhere can achieve and be successful and in fact, maybe even STAND out at these selective colleges!</p>
<p>Susan</p>
<p>My kids are in private high school - there is one BIG advantage in college admissions at their high school - excellent guidance.
The school has a college counselor with an assistant almost as skilled and knowledgeable as the counselor. Guidance counseling is separate. Add to that, the fact that less than half the class submits an application to a selective college, and you have something special for our area of the country.
Otherwise, I agree completely with what has been said in the other posts - in fact, in our city, for the most able students, the special programs in the public schools - IB, and a residential high school - are probably superior to the private. The middle ground students, though, get a better education in the private because of smaller class sizes, etc, similar to LovetoCamp’s situation.</p>
<p>Atlantmom and I cross posted but, her post illustrates well - super competitive high school, but still has lousy advising.
Also, her post demonstrates why many private high schools don’t rank!</p>
<p>One statisitic that (also) helped us make our decision, to send our DS to a Pvt instead of Public, was the freshman year at college GPA. Our son’s school tracks closely the GPA of the graduating seniors once they get to college. For a typical public school graduate, the “average” drop in GPA is very close to full grade point (ex: 3.8 in high school, 2.8 in freshman year in college). [Please note that I put quotes around the word “average” - because there will always be exceptions]. Graduates from our DS’s high school “average” drop in GPA is approx 3/10 of a grade point. (ex: 3.8 in high school, 3.5 in freshman year college). Colleges may be aware of these statistics. Just a thought worth considering.</p>
<p>While I agree with much of what Susan said in the above post, I think it is absolutely important to understand that all public schools are not equal! </p>
<p>We live in a demographic area that would suggest that our school system and public high school would be “very good”. Unfortunately, that is not the case. Funding for various enrichment programs has been cut dramatically, and the school is actually decreasing the number of honors programs and AP courses that it offers. The average class size is over 30 students. The school is actually leaning toward achieving a completely homogenous, non-academically competitive environment as a continuation of the middle school philosophy embraced by the administration. The joke in our house is that the school’s motto is “to strive for mediocrity”. </p>
<p>So while I agree that some kids could possibly excell in this type of environment, it is very difficult for the average smart (once motivated) kid to be challenged enough to thrive. The fact that some folks opt for private high schools may have nothing at all to do with elitist attitudes or college placement. It’s possible that we are afraid that our kids could drown in the sea of mediocrity without being given a fair chance to swim!</p>
<p>Susan - I read your post with interest and wonder if you attribute your daughters’ writing abilities to innate talent, or were they taught by teachers in your high school? The discussion here has centered on the differences in the student bodies and not so much on the differences that might exist in faculty between selective privates or publics and regular publics. I think that’s where the rationale comes in for why talented kids might not do well when they get to college - they don’t have the same preparation. (I don’t want to get ‘political’, but I remember reading in Newsday or Time - a quote from someone who knew him - that Dick Cheney flunked out of Yale because he didn’t have the preparation his classmates got at places like Andover.) On the other hand, there must be a reason even elite colleges have writing and math clinics on campus - recognizing that not all admitted students come with the same background.</p>
<p>Not all public schools are lousy and not all private schools are fantastic.<br>
Each school must be looked at on its individual merits. I just wanted to point out that public schools are not easier than private schools – depends. </p>
<p>The counseling issue is a big one. I have mentioned the counseling factor many times in my discussions with parents considering certain private schools and certain public schools. Unfortunately, in my city the general rule is that most private schools have better college counseling. This counseling inadequacy can lead to inadequate information given to the colleges about the school. That can hurt the chances of the students in college admissions. Luckily for us, our HS does give a fairly extensive profile to the colleges. This helps our students. One worry I have for the students is the variability between graduating classes. Being public, there is less consistency. Some years there are more excellent students than other years. I don’t know whether the profile is detailed enough for that information to be communicated. </p>
<p>IMO, there are advantanges and disadvantages for students that are dependent on the school, but that the distinction is not public v. private.</p>
<p>1sokkermom…your thoughts correlate with what I said in an earlier post on this thread…selecting a private high school may very well make great sense if the educational experience would be better for someone’s child. I simply was talking of the concept of going to private school as a means to college admissions. But as I said to Lovetocamp…if the choice is between 30 kids in a class vs. 15, as one example, there are reasons to choose which setting works best for your child (if you can afford to choose). </p>
<p>I also agree that in a school such as ours (not highly rated I’m sure), the college counseling is nothing like in a private school. We love our GC and he is supportive and helpful and an advocate for the kids. Selecting and applying to college, in terms of the selective type, really was our own project. He was great with the recs and stuff like that but the counseling and guidance of going about this process was our own. And our school surely has no “connections” with elite colleges. Those reps don’t visit, etc. I think the only college rep from any of my kids’s college list that even came to our HS was Smith. </p>
<p>Every case and situation is different. Our HS is nothing great. Our kids also went beyond the normal way of doing things in our MS and HS and that is where our GC was great. We advocated for accomodations to meet their learning needs, and he also is someone who thinks out of the box and helped my kids to create learning situations that were not the normal path, in order to create the proper challenge they required. It didn’t come from the school as much as coming up with a plan that the GC also advocated. Our school is not the best, though there are SOME good things. But what my kids did was to make the most of every opportunity and created opportunities when what existed was not adequate. </p>
<p>Susan</p>
<p>Susan, isn’t it interesting? Your daughters didn’t go to an amazing high school, yet they are thriving at very strong colleges.</p>
<p>My friend’s daughter at Stanford was pulled over by her professor. The professor said, “You are the best writer in the class”. This young woman went to a very good public school, but nothing like a top private high school. </p>
<p>My nephew went to a mediocre public high school. All he has is a 3.9 gpa at Stanford.</p>
<p>Makes me wonder.</p>
<p>Cream rises to the top.</p>
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<p>I think my husband, the public school teacher who sees some good teachers, and some not so good teachers would answer this way - at the very highest levels of each class, the kids who might be accepted to an Ivy, an AWS, huge merit scholarships, etc., talent way overcomes teaching - good or bad - they learn because either they hunger for it, or they are so bright, it doesn’t really matter.
Writing skills in particular, the “verbal” ones can learn to write with less than super instruction, the “math” ones don’t care about writing anyway!
The great middle ground, they are the ones that really benefit from good teaching, they need to be taught and motivated. Also, the real underachievers, the kid with 99th percentile standardized test scores and Bs and Cs - often it only takes one great teacher to make a difference in their lives. Good teachers and bad teachers are found in all schools, just as some can get to HYPS from practically any high school.</p>
<p>Also, the real underachievers, the kid with 99th percentile standardized test scores and Bs and Cs - often it only takes one great teacher to make a difference in their lives.</p>
<p>Haven’t found that teacher yet. :(</p>
<p>My theory about that, Dstark, is that that only works for the ones with no other motivators in their lives - the ones who live with overactive motivators, like we mostly are, they are underachieving for somewhat different reasons ;). keep the faith.</p>
<p>I have decided to leave him alone to his own devices. Like I have a choice. :)</p>
<p>Atlantamom, I agree on the counseling inadequacy with regard to helping students select and apply to more selective colleges and what that process entails, and also things like even how the school profile is written (poorly here), in some public schools (not all). Our HS doesn’t even have a parent session on the college process (though holds one on financial aid). I talked to the principal about this last April (new principal…and in fact, I learned that his grown children have mostly attended Ivies and such!). I told him that most parents don’t have a clue about how to go about this and they start late, etc. (clearly they are not on CC! LOL) I still get the school newsletters (my kid normally would be in the senior class so I guess they haven’t taken me off the list though she graduated early) and I noticed that maybe my talk had an effect because there is now a “Junior Parent Night” next week to help plan for college. However, the speakers are from a state agency that deals with financial aid, a person from the community college and an adcom from the state university. I guess it is a start :D. Would have been of no help for my kids…one who applied to elite colleges and one who applied to elite BFA programs. I’m glad it will help some people, however. We were on our own here. Thankfully, I found CC! </p>
<p>LefthandofDog…your question is very difficult to answer as to whether my kids’ strong writing skills can be attributed to innate talent or “high school teachers”. I can’t say which but only some thoughts about the matter. Youngest daughter, who is now 17 and freshman in college…is a very verbal child and for lack of a better term, a gifted writer, and I can’t begin to write like her. She wrote from the time she was a toddler, I kid you not. While I think some of her skills are innate, she also had lots of opportunities to write throughout school and then we advocated for various accomodations for even more. In elementary school, we had multi age classes. First she entered school early. She also was in classes with grades above her own. Our school individualized a lot. She was given ample opportunity to write at her own level. She wrote lengthy books in K. She wrote extensive research papers in primary grades, in addition to creative writing. Our elem school also was strong in its value of writing. I have numerous major papers she wrote in elem school. She also was placed out of certain requirements (after third grade, she had completed the entire elem school spelling curriculum so no longer took spelling, for example…this is just one example). Instead of taking spelling, she was able to engage in independent study in which she opted to write her own musicals, for two years. I recall a 90 page musical she wrote, for example. Her elem school wanted to accomodate her learning needs and so opportunities were provided. Middle school was really bad and I won’t get into how so, but again, accomodations had to be advocated. I’m not even getting into the years of math and French she skipped, independent studies and taking courses in the HS in those areas. Sticking with writing…she took creative writing course with the 12th grade in 8th grade, along with a course in Shakespeare. We found a state writing contest for her to enter (school never did that stuff) and she won. She enrolled in a long distance writing course on essays through Johns Hopkins, considered to be equivalent to college freshman level. For one marking period, she got an accomodation to not do the regular classwork in English and wrote a book tying in with Irish Literature that the class was studying. With much advocating on the part of the principal and GC, that we initiated, she was out of History one marking period and did an independent study on The Sixties (this kid loves to go in depth on a topic) under the supervision of the HS History Dept. Head (by the way, he is a Middlebury graduate). This resulted in a 60 page Power Point presentation. </p>
<p>When she got to high school…both my kids had for Freshman Honors English, a teacher who demanded a great deal of writing. My older D’s writing portfolio for that freshman class is 500 pages! Not counting major assignments, they had to also write a three page paper nightly. Their Honors English and History courses (both girls) all through HS involved MANY major essays and papers, not just one at the end of the term but throughout the courses. Unlike what I have read on this forum over the years with kids covering a certain amt. of material to take an AP exam, my kids had to do lots of papers (had exams too). I believe what they have to do now in college is not that different for them…they are not squirming at having to write papers, as they have written LOTS of them. In fact, I know that last night my older D is taking a course at Brown on a topic that her younger sister has studied extensively and done many independent projects/papers on and I think younger D mailed her a paper she did last year (had an extensive presentation she also prepared along with it) that is 36 pages of analysis comparing Sondheim with Larson. My older D is also a very competent writer and I have to remind myself of how skilled she is at it because the younger one stands out so much that way that I forget that the older one really in her own right, excels at it. But often people thought of her as this really great science/math person. But she is thoroughly prepared for the work at Brown. She has to write papers there and gets very good grades. </p>
<p>I can’t say if their teachers prepared them or if they just are skilled in their own right. It is a combination to some extent. I think they are skilled writers even if they never went to school. But our school did give them opporunities to write, it was expected as well. And my younger one also went beyond what was assigned in terms of writing…she would opt to challenge herself by either independent studies or taking an assignment and making it into much more…like two years ago in tenth grade for a very challenging Honors course called Democracies (this is a VERY challenging course…it does not use textbooks…primary sources, difficult ones…lots of essays)…she did a very extensive research and analysis to do with activism/peace/ war in Iraq and policies, etc…and turned it into a long Power Point presentation, interspersed with video clips, that also had all her research and analysis on it…and then arranged for a local venue to donate their space, food to be donated, and she arranged for student performers to perform in various mediums around this theme of peaceful activism on these issues, and performed herself, inviting the community. While this was never meant to be as big of a writing/research/presentation assignment, she made it into much more…it was an event. That’s how she approached things. So, yes, our school did emphasize writing (even our state requires writing portfolios) but she also seized opportunities to do more with writing and is talented in that area. </p>
<p>As far as colleges offering tutorial help for those students who may require it…I have to say that I differ with your possible assumption that those coming from low rated public schools (our HS likely is one of the kind you mean) are the students requiring the help at these writing tutoring centers. Actually I think it can be the students, from whichever high schools, that are not that used to writing papers (I read about kids at FAR better high schools than ours on CC who mostly have to take tests in high school and have not written much). Both my girls now go to college with a large number of classmates that seem to have either gone to private high schools or else public ones that are well regarded in very nice suburbs and such. Some who struggle or some who are not getting as good grades as they are, actually come from those kind of high schools as well. I really think you can find all types of kids from either high school background. Others may diminish the humble school beginnings that my kids had, but they have fared well in their selective colleges and felt well prepared, aren’t struggling or using any of the help services, etc. </p>
<p>This kind of thing can even go beyond merely academics. Kids can be skilled at things and even if they did not go to some great high school, they can still rise up in those areas. I have a kid on a varsity team in college, not recruited…the majority of her teammates went to specialty academies (VERY expensive) for this sport for high school and she never did and did not get that same degree of training at all. She is doing quite well anyway. Other kid did not go to a performing arts high school (our state doesn’t have them, and we would and could not send her to boarding school). She is now in well regarded arts program in college amongst many kids who came out of performing arts high schools (not all, but lots) and she is also doing quite well amongst those kids. </p>
<p>That is basically my point. I don’t know if it is innate or part of the education they had…likely some combination…but kids coming out of “lesser schools” really can still fare very well in admissions and also once they get to a competitive college. I don’t think my kids are unique whatsoever in this regard. </p>
<p>Susan</p>