<p>My kid does research with a guy at Boston Children’s hospital who is a graduate of the University of Cincinnati medical school and is an acknowledged expert in his field.</p>
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<p>The graduate program is the essential part of the pedigree. The picture is murkier for the undergraduate program. Virtually all flagship-type public universities have some (maybe a lot, maybe only a few) faculty members whose professional connections are sufficient to help place a top student in a very good program. In that sense, it may not matter for a top student where s/he earned the undergraduate diploma. Students at less well-known or less-respected schools should be focused on getting to know faculty members who are willing and able to use their contacts to help students who want to go to graduate school.</p>
<p>I don’t think it is true that it doesn’t matter <em>at all</em> where one gets an undergraduate degree if the goal is a very good graduate program and a future as a successful academic. If the faculty includes people without doctorates, or with doctorates from low-ranked programs, and if they have no publishing record (easy to check nowadays), then they are not likely to have the connections needed for acceptance to good graduate programs.</p>
<p>That floor is not nearly as low as many on CC think, however. It varies by field.</p>
<p>When D first said she wanted to be a doc, we took her to see her pediatrician to talk about it…He gave a lot of the same advice as here, with the added, “Make sure you get your science, obviously, but major in a humanity. I don’t care if it’s acting or history or philosophy. Don’t major in biology…just get the requirements.” Obviously he’s affiliated with a tip-top teaching hospital.</p>
<p>When he said this, I started looking at diplomas on the walls and I was really stunned that all the really good docs were from state schools for undergrad. One pulmonologist we spoke to talked about how he started at a community college because he’d been such a “cut-up” I quote in high school. He’s really famous…six months to get an appointment if you don’t “know” someone. </p>
<p>As for academics, the higher they can start from the start, the better, imho. It really matters for a prof.</p>
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<p>In an ideal world where anyone can attend any school without any debt, yes, go for the top. </p>
<p>For those fields in which salaries are lowest and jobs fewest, such as literature, languages, anthropology, it is best from a quality of life perspective not to accumulate loads of debt. Unfortunately, those are the fields for which the pedigree matters the most, and the cost for many is the highest.</p>
<p>Yes. I agree. I was doing a “best possible world” case scenario.</p>
<p>I went to a state school for undergrad, and even though my grad was top 5 in my field, I still think it hurt me when I wanted to go academic. FWIW.</p>
<p>But, yes, quality of life is an issue. Excellent point.</p>
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<p>I agree. It matters <em>some</em> where you go undergrad - especially for academics and researchers. Going to a top college can enhance your chances of getting into a top grad program. Which in turn enhances your chances of getting a top post-doc and an academic appointment. Or as a UCSD prof who sits on her department’s grad school admissions committee told me, for their Ph.D. program they have a level based on strength of undergrad school below which they will not accept students. Doesn’t matter what your grades or GRE scores are; if your college is ranked below the cut-off line they won’t seriously consider your app.</p>
<p>I do think it matters for academics, which is kind of sad, but also kind of makes a lot of sense, because in that case it actually is a part of resume in a whole different way.</p>
<p>When choosing a doctor an important question to ask is where did they do their residency and/fellowship training? It needs to have been a good program with the right mix of work experience combined with good didactic training. The med school is of secondary relevance. And I agree, the undergrad school is completely irrelevant.</p>
<p>One way to choose doctors is to ask other doctors, especially doctors who deal with other doctors. Ask the anesthesiologist to recommend a good surgeon. Ask the radiologist to recommend a good orthopedic surgeon. Or ask a nurse.</p>
<p>It does seem like “almost” a requirement for a supreme court justice to be from an ivy law school. BUT, did all the supreme court judges go to an ivy for undergrad? I don’t know the answer to that.</p>
<p>I agree that a top school is needed for certain PhDs and such, but is it necessary for undergrad? That is the question of the thread.</p>
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<p>And, despite my participation in this thread, I have to say, it is a rather silly question.</p>
<p>The answer, which you already knew, is NO. At least not in the vast majority of situations.</p>
<p>But as I said before, you go to a top school for the overall education and experience. It is a matter of personal priorities and affordability. Don’t value it? Can’t afford it? Don’t pay for it. </p>
<p>You can eat at Burger King or at the Capital Grill. Different prices, different ambience, ultimately the same artery-blocking calories. Depends on your style and your price range.</p>
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<p>Rochester ranked #31; Mt Sinai ranked #22; UNC #20. OK, I’ll throw out a name with a lower ranked school…just for fun: Michael DeBakey: Tulane.</p>
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<p>Yep - I work at a large Academic Medical Center as well as have tons of physicians as friends. Every single one of them say their kids who are interested in medicine have gone or will be going to the State U for this exact reason. They want to be able to pay for medical school for their kids and there is no benefit to going to an expensive UG. Not only that but it’s the GPA and MCAT that get you into medical school. You can often go to a State U and come out with a 4.0 GPA vs. going to a tougher school and struggling to get a 3.5, which makes it much harder to get into medical school.</p>
<p>The VP of our Medical Staff recently told me that ‘all medical schools’ are basically the same. They use the same text books and teach the same curriculum. What makes a difference is the residency and fellowship programs." That makes a lot of sense.</p>
<p>The top cardiologist in our area and his wife, an internist, have raised three docs. The youngest is best buddies with my oldest. They sent all three of the kids to CC for two years and then to state school for undergrad. My gut tells me that undergrad prestige helps in the “society” jobs e.g. the NE auction houses and perhaps the art world. My middle toyed with the idea of art restoration for awhile and I think I would have pushed the NE corridor for that. Undergrad prestige matters not a wit for the practicing medical practioners. Undergrad prestige might matter for IB, but the future feels murkier in that regard. People who want to stay in education should research their undergrad as there are pockets of schools with very high percentages of kids going onto good grad school (look at Kalamazoo College and that ilk) but in general it’s the grad school that makes the difference. Engineering is murkier, some prestige schools that are well known such as MIT are given, but some of the lesser knowns are heavily recruited by specific industries for individual departments (aerospace, petroleum,etc.) I feel like it’s safe to say in general undergrad doesn’t matter all that much except for a few specific business and industry examples. I’ve never quite feel certain why the concept of USNWR rankings took off like it did maybe we can blame David Letterman for that or whomever developed the “top 10 list” but once you leave the “education system” at whatever point it matters less and the further you move up the degrees it matters less and the most recent degree holds the weight.</p>
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<p>It might a fairer analogy to compare your neighborhood steak joint/diner to Capital Grill or Peter Luger. You go to the latter for the experience, possibly more consistent quality and to impress. If you are wealthy or someone gave you a gift certificate, that would tip the scales in favor of the name brand.</p>
<p>Academic medicine is a terrible choice for dissecting this issue. And Harvard Med (where I used to work) is probably the worst example of a med school to choose as an illustration. </p>
<p>Why? As a profession, academic medicine is an outlier. Most docs do not commit to an academic career. They have (cough, cough) other focuses (foci?) than the pursuit of knowledge. As an institution, the head of HMS (formally known as the “dean of the faculty of medicine”, worked there for years before I figured out my quest to find the “dean of the med schoo” was a fruitless quest. 
) has very little focus on academics. (s)he spends much time brokering truces in the battles among the various parts of the med school. So they want someone with excellent political skills with a deep knowledge of the players. Hence Flier’s choice. If you want to really understand academic medicine, look a layer or two deeper, at the folks reporting to the dean. </p>
<p>IMHO, the reason the OP’s question is difficult to answer is that the elite tend to skim quite a bit of the cream of the talent pool. The generous financial aid policies of the upper elite can even, as others have suggested, make it less expensive for upper middle class kids to attend an elite than a state U, especially in this age of skyrocketing tuition. </p>
<p>That said, with the exception of those professions we’re not to discuss here, the ones that only recruit at an entry level from the elites, most professions do, in fact focus on what one has done, not where. It is easy to observe that only the top one or two student from a less renowned college get into Yale law school, compared to much deeper in the rankings for kids from an elite, but consider that this is an apples/oranges comparison.</p>
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<p>They didn’t all go to Ivy for undergrad, but it’s still an impressive line-up of colleges:</p>
<p>Justice College/Law School</p>
<p>Roberts Harvard/Harvard
Scalia Georgetown/Harvard
Kennedy Stanford/Harvard
Stevens Chicago/Northwestern
Thomas Holy Cross/Yale
Ginsburg Cornell/ Harvard & Columbia
Breyer Stanford/Harvard
Alito Princeton/Yale
Sotomayor Princeton/Yale</p>
<p>Recently retired:
Souter Harvard/Harvard
O’Connor Stanford/Stanford</p>
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<p>Not me, I’d put Hopkins in that spot… :)</p>
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<p>I disagree. I think that there is a HUGE correlation for “top” professional schools: the number of undergrads at Harvard Med and Harvard Law are from Harvard! Throw in Yale and the other Ivies, and you get a big chunk of their class.</p>
<p>Go down the food chain, and the Val might not get into Harvard Med. I happen to look at a mid-30’s college’s stats for med acceptances by school, and they got two into Harvard Med over the past decade. Ditto for Yale Med, and those were just in the past year alone – (likely due to a faculty connection?) – but the point is not one Yale Med admit in the prior ten years.</p>
<p>Of course, attending a top med school is not necessary for the average practicing physician, but attending a top Law school can make a huge difference in a legal career.</p>
<p>*but attending a top Law school can make a huge difference in a legal career. *</p>
<p>Maybe true…I don’t know. The lawyers in my family didn’t go to TOP law schools (They went to LMU, Valpo, and another one that I forget.). One is a partner at an elite Chicago law firm, one is a partner at an elite Newport Beach law firm, and the other is just in private practice by himself - but doing fine. The two that are partners make 7 figure incomes.</p>
<p>BTW…
Coureur…thanks for the list for THE SUPREMES! :)</p>
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<p>Sure, and Bill Gates is a college drop out and can buy most of the countries of the world. But the plural of anecdotes are not data. :)</p>
<p>Mosey over to the law school thread on cc or to other law schools cites where recruiters frequently chime in and report that their clients won’t even consider a resume from someone without JD pedigree.</p>