<p>Homer you do not know what your talking about.</p>
<p>There is a shortage…most of your links are BS…You just hate people doing Engineering or Computer Science because you cannot did it yourself…I dislike most people with BA in Accounting, Business, and so on…Because they are so full of them-self.</p>
<p>There is no shortage of anything. Why are you spewing that nonsesne and spreading misinformation to unsuspecting people? Every single INDEPENDENT study that has been done has found no shortage. Duke did a study. Are we supposed to believe an anonymous internet poster over Duke?</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.soc.duke.edu/GlobalEngineering/pdfs/WhereEngineersAre.pdf[/url]”>http://www.soc.duke.edu/GlobalEngineering/pdfs/WhereEngineersAre.pdf</a></p>
<p>In full disclosure I am an accounting major, but if I ever came across someone who said there was a shortage of accountants, I would call them out on it.</p>
<p>Homer,</p>
<p>I will believe the people I know at Google, Intel, Lockheed, EA, and more over Duke any day.</p>
<p>Your link also say “A key problem is that the United States lacks enough
native students completing master’s and PhD degrees”</p>
<p>That sounds like a shortage.</p>
<p>ok, time for a quick lesson in Econ 101, since I see Mr. CS2011 was asleep in that class or did not take it:</p>
<p>“Economists like Rosenberg argue that in a market economy, there’s really no such thing as a true shortage. If you want more of something, you can pay more and have it. When employers say that there’s a worker shortage, what they really mean is they can’t get enough workers at the price they want to pay, the argument goes.”</p>
<p>[Labor</a> Shortages: Myth and Reality](<a href=“Bloomberg - Are you a robot?”>Bloomberg - Are you a robot?)</p>
<p>Plus Accountants and MBA’s drink diet soda which only they think tastes good or close to ‘the real thing’.</p>
<p>oh ic, the shortage argument is interesting.
do you think the CS market will need people in long run?</p>
<p>Is that the same Intel that laid off people recently? Yeah, I guess they must be so short of workers that they can afford to lay 6,000 of them off:</p>
<p>[Intel</a> to shut four plants, lay off 6,000 | Hardware - InfoWorld](<a href=“http://www.infoworld.com/t/hardware/intel-shut-four-plants-lay-6000-255]Intel”>Intel to shut four plants, lay off 6,000 | InfoWorld) </p>
<p>EA must also have a huge labor shortage. Otherwise why else would they have laid off 1,500 workers?</p>
<p>[Gamasutra</a> - News - EA Announces Increased Net Loss, Confirms 1,500 Layoffs](<a href=“http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=26001]Gamasutra”>http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=26001)</p>
<p>oops, I alomsot forgot about Lockheed’s layoff. The only reason their layoff figure is small is because they have tons of govt. contracts:</p>
<p>[Lockheed</a> Martin Announces Layoffs | NBC Dallas-Fort Worth](<a href=“Lockheed Martin Announces Layoffs – NBC 5 Dallas-Fort Worth”>Lockheed Martin Announces Layoffs – NBC 5 Dallas-Fort Worth) </p>
<p>And last but not least, there are the 10,000 layoffs at Google:</p>
<p>[Google</a> Layoffs: 10,000 Jobs Being Cut, Report Claims - PCWorld](<a href=“http://www.pcworld.com/article/154450/google_layoffs_10000_jobs_being_cut_report_claims.html]Google”>http://www.pcworld.com/article/154450/google_layoffs_10000_jobs_being_cut_report_claims.html)</p>
<p>So in essence, in order to argue that theire is an engineer SHORTAGE, you cited 4 companies that LAID OFF thousands of workers.</p>
<p>oh, software engineer seems a little risky choice. Maybe a EE or Computer Engineering is more secure , huh?</p>
<p>Google did not laid off 10,000 people…read the whole thing. Lockheed is hiring thousands of people right now. Intel is hiring people right now.</p>
<p>also did you read the first link…that last part say “A key problem is that the United States lacks enough
native students completing master’s and PhD degrees”</p>
<p>That sounds like a shortage.</p>
<p>"“A key problem is that the United States lacks enough
native students completing master’s and PhD degrees”</p>
<p>That sounds like a shortage."</p>
<p>“On the doctoral level, for example,
these firms DON’T WANT PhDs. The reporter should have asked those
employers she interviewed just how many PhDs they actually hire. The
answer would have been just a handful. For example, in 1999 a team of
Intel engineers recruiting for new graduates visited my department at UC
Davis, saying they were desperate to hire. I mentioned that I had a
couple of PhDs in electrical engineering I could refer to them, one a
new graduate and the other a 1992 graduate. One of the recruiters
replied, “No, Intel is not very interested in PhDs.” The other added
that a PhD would not have enough to challenge him or her at Intel,
except in the rare case of very highly specialized research areas.”</p>
<p>The fact that so many U.S. graduate degrees are obtained by foreign
students does not mean we “need” so many graduate degrees. Most people
with a graduate degree are not doing work which requires a graduate
degree. </p>
<pre><code> One does not need a graduate degree for most work in the field, including
research and development. For example, Linus Torvalds developed the
Linux operating system while he was an undergraduate. Marc Andreesen
developed MOSAIC, which he later refined into the Netscape Web browser,
when he was an undergraduate. Tim Berners-Lee, the inventor of the Web,
has only a Bachelor’s degree, and it is not in computer science. None of
Bill Gates, Larry Ellison and Steve Jobs, founders of Microsoft, Oracle
and Apple, respectively, even has a Bachelor’s degree. Even at the
highly R&D-oriented firm which first developed the Internet, Bolt Beranek
and Newman Inc., only 4 percent of the staff have a PhD. I’ve mentioned
before the Intel recruiters who told me “Intel is not very interested in
PhDs,” adding that a PhD would not have enough to challenge him or her at
Intel, except in rare cases.
</code></pre>
<ul>
<li>If in spite of my comments in the last bullet the industry insists
that it does need people with graduate degrees, then they should hire the
tens of thousands of American programmers and engineers who have graduate
degrees but are unemployed. The industry’s refusal to do so shows that
their current pitch based on graduate degrees is just yet another Phony
Education Argument. </li>
</ul>
<p><a href=“http://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~matloff/Archive/GradDegrees.txt[/url]”>http://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~matloff/Archive/GradDegrees.txt</a></p>
<p>“The Urban Institute report released last year (along with earlier
research by others showing similar results) showed that plenty of
Americans major in math and science in college, but most don’t continue
in the field. There are two main reasons for this. First, as the
National Research Council showed (for the computer field), pursuing a
PhD produces a net loss in lifetime income.”</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~matloff/Archive/Prasher.txt[/url]”>http://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~matloff/Archive/Prasher.txt</a></p>
<p>You used Duke to make a point…know your using Davis to make a point against Duke.</p>
<p>I am stopping now…Because you can not tell a young kid anything.</p>
<p>I am not contradicting myself. The Duke study said that Americans are not pursuing graduate degrees. This is TRUE. However, the Davis studies say that most tech jobs do NOT require a graduate degree and that most companies are not interested in hiring PhDs.</p>
<p>The main reason why so many foreigners get PhDs in engienering is because it puts them on a fast track to citizenship. Plus the PhD can increase their earning potential in their home country. Since Americans don’t have to compete for Green Cards, there is no reason to get a PhD. Financially they would be better off pursuing an MBA or a JD. Lawyers with engineering degrees can become patent agents.</p>
<p>True it puts them “on a fast track to citizenship” because they are needed…</p>
<p>If they were needed, then engineering salaries would not be declining. This only examines the numbers from 01-05, but if you looked at 06-10, you would also see wages declining:</p>
<p>CHANGE IN REAL STARTING SALARIES, 2001-2005</p>
<p>Computer Engineering -12.0%
Electrical Engineering -10.2%
Computer Science -12.7%</p>
<p>And for fun, I will include accounting:</p>
<p>Accounting -2.3%</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~matloff/Archive/StartingSalaryErosionBach.txt[/url]”>http://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~matloff/Archive/StartingSalaryErosionBach.txt</a></p>
<p>Again, simple Econ 101: When labor is in short supply, wages go UP.</p>
<p>You use the BLS some so here</p>
<p>“Employment of computer software engineers is expected to increase by 32 percent from 2008-2018.
Starting salary offers for graduates with a bachelor’s degree in computer science averaged $61,407 in July 2009.”
[Computer</a> Software Engineers and Computer Programmers](<a href=“http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos303.htm]Computer”>http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos303.htm)</p>
<p>"Employment of computer scientists is expected to grow by 24 percent from 2008 to 2018, which is much faster than the average for all occupations.</p>
<p>Median annual wages of computer and information scientists were $97,970 in May 2008."
[Computer</a> Scientists](<a href=“http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos304.htm]Computer”>http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos304.htm)</p>
<p>"Employment of database administrators is expected to grow by 20 percent from 2008 to 2018, much faster than the average</p>
<p>Median annual wages of database administrators were $69,740 in May 2008. The middle 50 percent earned between $52,340 and $91,850."
[Computer</a> Network, Systems, and Database Administrators](<a href=“http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos305.htm]Computer”>http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos305.htm)</p>
<p>“According to a salary survey conducted by the National Association of Colleges and Employers, bachelor’s degree candidates in accounting received starting offers averaging $48,993 a year in July 2009; master’s degree candidates in accounting were offered $49,786 initially.”
<a href=“http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos001.htm[/url]”>http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos001.htm</a></p>
<p>62K is more then 48K</p>
<p>"Since Americans don’t have to compete for Green Cards, there is no reason to get a PhD. Financially they would be better off pursuing an MBA or a JD. Lawyers with engineering degrees can become patent agents. "</p>
<p>As a US-citizen in a CS PhD program, I shudder at the thought of getting an MBA, and nothing sounds more boring to me than patent law. There is a clear reason to get a PhD: doing research instead of having to code all of the time. Instead of being a code-monkey at Google/MS, a PhD can be a researcher at their research branch. There is actually a clear distinction at places like this, and you are given more independence, can go to conferences, etc. Most T50 programs send many of their grads to positions like this (those that don’t go on to academia or startups).</p>
<p>hey Trout, thanks for your great feedback!</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Can someone confirm whether cpE = CS + EE ? does it vary by school? how is it composed at UIUC ?</p>