Also @ blossom: The T-14 are considered “national” law schools with respect to placement (although in reality that means that they all place in NYC biglaw). Not sure if that is the “where” to which you referred.
@TomSrOfBoston —. Yes, most of what you say is true. I said right in my post that the choice may not be the best for everyone. Everyone’s situation is different. Please know that I am not judging anyone else’s choices, just sharing ours. The OP asked for people to report on a certain type of choice they made. Two generations of my family made that choice, so I shared my story.
No. I think there are many roads to success and happiness, and I think I would have found happiness no matter what, because I am a generally optimistic person. I am just saying I was very happy with my choice and would do it all over again for myself, and I am supporting the same choice for my son.
I became a public school teacher and then a public school administrator. I could have gone to a much, much less selective school and had the same “success.” I have never wanted to be super rich or famous, just fulfilled by doing something I think makes a difference in the lives of others. But I think that the four years at Williams had intangible effects on the way I approach issues and problems, the way I view the world, the way I read and write, etc. Those four years were a wonderful, wonderful experience.
D2 was offered full scholarship (combination athletic and merit) at an HBCU. It was tempting… but in the end I don’t think she would have been happy there sport wise, or socially – we decided on a private D2 that offered her decent merit.
I believe that “the good” is plural. It could be good to go to a less prestigious school for small cost. It could also be good to attend a top tier college at full cost’ if circumstances allow. Oftentimes we choose between two goods, not clear cut good vs “bad.”
With my S some years back, we had to choose between a lesser school that would have cost $10K after scholarships, and a CC top LAC that would have cost $40K. But, the $10k school was in a great city, more in line with our economic status (at $40K he would have been among the poorest of his peers), and was a catholic college, which is important to him.
So, he chose between the two goods, and went to the $10K school. He is academically challenged, has good friends, and best of all, will have money in the bank for his graduate degree.
@TheGreyKing Fortunately or unfortunately, my kid and I never explored Williams, although I was aware that it was one of the top LACs in U.S., although I took him to that Claremont campus where many top CA LACs are located, including Pomona and Harvey Mudd. Surprisingly, my kid said he preferred a large campus. I was surprised because I thought he, having attended a large public HS in Southern CA, would prefer a small, closely-knit college campus. One or two smart kids from the same HS went to Rice because of the closely-knit campus. I am curious, what areas of studies is Williams mostly known for?
I also have an attitude that going to college is not mostly to get a good job. My parents were relatively poor because they were recent immigrants, but I never interviewed for jobs in college or worried too much about getting a job after college. My attitude was I would worry about that when the time came. I do consider college as a place and time to be idealistic, grow and broaden your perspectives and think about things that you normally would not think about in the work setting.
As for your statement that “there is nothing better to spend one’s own money”, I do generally agree. I know my parents would have done the same had they been able to financially. As it was, I went to college and graduate school mostly for free because of financial grants and totally unexpected economic scholarship because I guess my parents were poor compared to other kids’ families. My concern wasn’t that I would spend the money on my kid’s education but that my kid understand what he would be foregoing by spending $300K on his college education in lieu of investing $300K in let’s say stock market and let it ride for 4 years. i wanted my kid to understand that he’s not only foregoing $300K but the opportunity cost also.
@blossom spouse-UVA ended up M&A at Skadden NYC along with a few other classmates.
@oldfort Was this USC in Southern CA?
I am in no way suggesting that you won’t end up at a white shoe law firm in any city in the country from UVA. That was my point about ALL the T-14’s and their placement records.
But there are situations where taking the money from Duke, Georgetown, etc. (i.e. the “lower” tier of the 14) is worth doing. And others where it is not. YMMV.
The differences between the schools in the top 3 and top 14 are pretty trivial. Except for Supreme Court clerkships, some fellowships where there are differences and preferences.
The question was should a kid take the money or go to HYS with no money. And my answer is- it depends.
I’d agree with you on that. My spouse chose UVA because at the time there was instate tuition much cheaper no longer though. He researched outcomes in the top group and found almost no difference in outcomes for what he wanted to do.
My daughter was offered a $16,000 scholarship to attend a school that has a COA of around $20,000 and she has to pass and be pretty much full pay at a different state school instead. The cheaper option for her would not offer enough research opportunity for her major (physics). So she is trying to decide between two top state schools that make the price tag a whole lot more (Everyone here who says pick a state flagship school, they are more reasonable is wrong. Unless the school is in your backyard your kid is going to pay for room and board). I can’t make her go to a school that will make her debt free if she won’t make connections and further herself professionally. So yes, I can see passing up free tuition to choose a better school.
I think the reality is that very few families can realistically manage to be full pay at a college on the level you speak of. The vast, vast majority of stories you see/hear about deal with families and students swamped with debt paying for ANY college. There is a very small sliver of society that can be full pay at a reach school for their child. It is just the sad reality of life. I also feel that as a society we are missing out on so much potential when vast numbers of students are not able to reach their potential.
D16 turner down free ride at Santa Clara University for a full pay at MIT. She also turned down Presidential scholarship at USC (CA) and Regents scholarship and instate tuition at six top UCs. Why? Good question. Because it is MIT. Because as difficult it is for us to make payments, she hopefully will graduate debt free. She was not seriously considering attending few Ivy’s she got into or we would never pay full price for any other school but MIT or Stanford. It all depends on a student. DD was attending public high school. We don’t have any connections. And she has very ambitious goals. She thought that attending the best school in her major will open opportunities that other schools will not offer. So far it is true and we have no regrets. Time will tell if this was a right decision.
@websensation - the lower tier T14s are East coast schools. They are emailing to find out “what it would take.” Once we have all info in I may come back here for advice on behalf of D2.
Unless you want to be a Supreme Court clerk, taking the money for a lower tier T14 is probably the smart play. The employment outcomes don’t vary that much until you get outside of the T14.
Percent of 2016 law school class getting federal clerkships or jobs at large law firms:
1 Columbia 82.5%
2 Chicago 78.1%
3 Duke 77.7%
4 Penn 77.1%
5 UVA 77.0%
…
12 Michigan 68.7%
13 Cal 61.5%
14 Vandy 56.6%
15 Georgetown 51.5%
But then it really starts to drop off:
18 UCLA 42.7%
23 ND 36.6%
25 GW 35.5%
We could never have done full-pay at a private school but we did let our eldest go to a private school that maxed our college budget when she could have gone to a highly regarded public school for free. Honestly, Our daughter would have been fine at the public school but it wasn’t what she wanted and we knew it wasn’t how she learned best. We have no regrets but we also didn’t rack up a bunch of debt… just had to be extra frugal and cut back on some things. We are doing the same for current HS senior. If it fits in the budget, he chooses even though he could stay local and go for free.
@MassDaD68 - At the nation’s top colleges, they are so generous with financial aid that many people can afford to go (unless they need to work instead, to bring home money to take care of the rest of their family). I know Williams says they will cover a ton of stuff for needy students: books, travel to and from Williams at the start and end of a semester (plus travel to previews for you and one parent), room and full board, application fees to graduate schools and standardized tests for grad schools, a suit for your first job interview, etc.
Even someone as comfortable financially as my son can get a little financial aid. We played with the NPCs at Williams and Hamilton, after Hamilton sent prospective students a postcard stating that 40% of people in our income bracket get some financial aid. We saw that if we had just $8000 less in our savings account, we would get over $2000 a year in aid. So if we had a second child, we would probably be eligible for some financial aid. (As it was, we did not apply.)
@websensation - In answer to your question, Williams is strong across the board in the liberal arts. It is considered one of the best colleges in the nation for— wait for it— art history! It is also a powerhouse in economics. Math and physics students win record numbers of prizes, history and political science are strong… Pretty much any usual liberal arts major is strong at Williams.
What areas might be weaker at Williams? Well, I might not recommend it for someone who wants to be an engineer, because they have only combined programs with other schools for the engineering part (not sure, but I think Dartmouth and Columbia?). But there is someone on the GroupMe for admitted students who is indeed planning to do an engineering combo program, so people do it! Also, Middlebury is more famous for foreign languages and is basically the same type of school environment a little farther north.
I would love to hear about your daughter’s journey to law school. My daughter is currently a 1L at a T14 law school. I think the law school application process is much different than UG. My daughter’s top choice UG waitlisted her. The law school at the corresponding UG (T14) offered her one of their larger scholarships (>50% tuition guaranteed for all 3 years.) As a parent I thought it was all good to go. The ASW was horrible: poorly planned, poorly executed, the fellow students she met didn’t seem to be people she wanted to spend 3 years with, and the grit of the neighborhood just didn’t appeal to her any more.
She couldn’t be having a better experience at any other school.
I would love to hear more about your daughter’s experiences after ASWs.
moderator’s note
We are veering off topic especially since the topic is not about law school. We can move all of the law school discussions and place them in a different thread on the law school forum
Kid turned down a full ride at USC to go to Harvard full pay. No regrets at all
We keep saying we will cross that bridge when (and if) we come to it. The tippy top schools are the last of her list to post acceptances. The state flagship for us won’t be free and it is not a good fit. So far she has very good merit from safeties, some decent merit from matches and even some from a high reach. We can swing full pay but it will be somewhat painful. I have to admit there is a small part of me that hopes we won’t have to make the choice but please don’t tell my daughter.