Why applicants overreach and are disappointed in April...

@blossom, @snarlatron - No, the teachers’ speeches about the students spoke about intellectual curiosity and extra research and special projects beyond the classroom untaken just for love of the subject. And one of the students had made it to the state level in both athletic and music competitions. I know both kids and they are all-around amazing. Really kind and thoughtful boys, too. It is a very disappointing result for them, but I am sure they will excel anywhere they go.

RD and EA were brutal this year at the top schools. Our high school’s candidates who were successful at getting into top 20 colleges on the US News national LAC or university lists were mostly either ED applicants or athletic recruits/otherwise hooked. And these unhooked ED applicants were what @Lindagaf would call “average excellent”— i.e., like the boys described above— fabulous but no national or international prizes or anything superhuman— just students who had excelled at school and made a local impact in their extracurriculars. ED was evidently the best way to go.

Truly outstanding student, but has done nothing to stand out, or just failed to develop a unique passion for an extracurricular until senior year.

Here’s an analogy I’ve used with regard to my S and athletics, but it works with academics too. My S has been described as the best cross country runner in school history. He holds all the course records for our school. At the county level, he drops from number 1 to maybe number 10 or 12. At the state level I’m not sure he even cracks the top 50. Beyond state borders, forget it. People were shocked when we said he could never run at a big 10 type school. (He’s running D3 in the fall). People can be lulled into complacency because they are tops in their bubble, and don’t look at the bigger picture.

It’s not just stats and some same ECs. There’s a whole app to fill out. A lot miss the point. More than great awards or some odd unusual activity. If stats, courses, the EC list are the bones, the rest is how you flesh it out. And that should be relevant to your review, not random musings or back to lower school.

For kids who are big fish in small ponds, the expectations of friends and relatives can also play a role. I’ve heard people say to WRBK “you’re so smart, you’ll get into college anywhere”, or “you are so smart, you should totally go to Harvard”, or “you’ll get a full ride to {insert HYPSM here}”. The student may believe the hype, or feel pressure to get in someplace that will meet the expectations of others.

Sometimes a likely is a likely until it’s not. Meaning that some high schools may have a bunch of go to likely schools for kids at different stat levels. But then suddenly one year that school stops being a likely due to a big surge in applicants or a change in their yield strategy. But you don’t know that until it is too late.

@blossom

So where should thes average excellent, straight A, award winning kids look? What is not an overreach? How do you define the right pool of colleges for the kids who have done everything perfectly except win a national award? It seems like the next tier down is rejecting them for yield protection as well.

A straight-A student with top-end test scores should be able to find safeties with automatic admission for his/her stats, and automatic large merit scholarships if there are significant financial limitations.

Of course, if s/he is picky and thinks that such schools are “beneath” him/her, that can make finding safeties more difficult.

@ucbalumnus maybe we need to start a thread for auto-admit schools. Would any smaller LAC style schools fit the description? A list of great safeties for great students might be very helpful.

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/1562918-updated-list-of-schools-with-auto-admit-guaranteed-admission-criteria.html is an older but sticky thread about automatic admission schools. Some schools’ criteria may have changed.

Somewhere other than the US News rankings.

A safety – a college that accepts more than half of its applicants and where the student’s stats put them at the upper end.

Any college that offers rolling admission or non-binding EA.

I don’t think the “next tier down” is rejecting kids for yield protection based on high stats – I think it’s a combination of factors, but it starts with the false assumption that a college that accepts 20% of applicants vs. 8% is somehow a college where odds of admission are 50/50 or better. And the colleges don’t want to see a brag sheet – the ad coms want to know what differentiates the applicant from the rest of the pack, and what that student will bring to their campus if admitted. Instead they are seeing the same set of essays and recs that accompanied the application to Harvard… and its sending the wrong message to the wrong audience.

A friend of mine who worked in Harvard admissions mentioned to me once that Harvard was not necessarily looking for the smartest students, they were looking for the students who would be the most successful. Outside of academia, success depends on many qualities in addition to sheer intellect and dedication (even for Bill Gates, it is not genius alone that accounts for his success). Within academia, while those qualities are more important than they are outside (on the whole, though with exceptions), there are still other qualities that influence success. And Harvard is not necessarily interested in producing a large number of the next generation of academics, at least with its undergrad admits. For one thing, Harvard can’t maintain its endowment on donations from academics.

Harvard says that it wants to admit 200-300 of the most promising future scholars in each class. Actually, from what I have seen locally, they don’t do too badly at that. But it’s a small fraction of the whole set of admits.

In my experience, it is rare that a student is counting on a perfect ACT or SAT score alone to gain entry to a top school. Students may underestimate how many students (including themselves) have the “whole package” of high standardized test scores, excellent GPA both weighted and unweighted, rigor in the high school courses, perhaps multiple post-AP courses, and very strong, but not unique extracurricular activities. Students in this category are still rejected from top schools.

I suspect that the admissions committee members at top schools become a bit tired of these students. They are looking for someone who is especially interesting, unique, or funny. They are looking for a student who tugs at their heartstrings. I know that admissions is not a Queen for a Day competition, but I suspect that an essay that somehow makes an emotional connection with an admissions committee member is more effective than you might think, more often than you might guess. Is that applicant a better person, or savvier than other applicants? In reality, most likely not. Also, the admissions committee members are sometimes looking for a student who advances their personal agenda in some way. You can see evidence of this on CC if you read a lot of it and read it carefully.

Yes, occasionally an applicant makes a real blunder–applies to Princeton and writes that he wants to continue to medical school at Princeton, or applies to MIT and writes anything that comes across as arrogant–but I suspect that is probably fairly rare among the really excellent applicants.

I think that some admissions committee members are unable to distinguish the truly exceptional high flyers from the run-of-the-mill excellent students (Harvard’s statements notwithstanding). I think some of the schools don’t care about trying to do that. Caltech probably does. But the missions of most of the top schools are fulfilled by having an adequately sized class of adequately strong undergraduates. The top colleges make their reputations with their faculty; to a lesser extent with their post-docs; to a lesser extent than that, with their graduate students; and almost negligibly, with their undergraduates.

I also think that in most cases, the students themselves have no way of knowing at the high school senior level whether they are among the truly exceptional high flyers, or whether they are among the run-of-the-mill excellent students. Nothing wrong with being run-of-the-mill excellent–it is a quality that the nation sorely needs; but it’s not the same as being extraordinary.

(If you object to the phrase “I think that . . . ,” please replace it by "It is my considered opinion, based on information I have and instances I have known, that . . . ")

@calmom do you think every student has something that differentiates them from the pack? Sometimes it seems a little futile. If your child loves theater, so do millions of others and so on. I think the pressure to stand out is itself becoming far too stressful. I’m not disagreeing with you, just venting a bit. I do completely agree with the idea of rolling admissions and EA. The best thing in the world is an early acceptance somewhere.

Yes, but if the student loves theater – they should be applying to colleges across the spectrum with good theater programs or opportunities – not just high end prestige colleges. And if they don’t have something that differentiates them from the pack – for example, they don’t happen already have an established career in acting like Emma Watson had when she applied to Brown – then they need to understand that their chances at the mega-selective schools are really not that great.

So maybe that kid applies to:

Fordham (45% acceptance rate)
Emerson (48% acceptance rate)
Muhlenburg (48% acceptance rate)
Santa Clara U (48% acceptance rate)
Southern Methodist U (49% acceptance rate)
Sarah Lawrence (53% acceptance rate)
Chapman University (54% acceptance rate)
Loyola Marymount (54% acceptance rate)
Penn State (56% acceptance rate)
Drew University (57% acceptance rate)
Bennington College (60% acceptance rate)
Elon University (60% acceptance rate)
Hofstra (62% acceptance rate)
Pace University (66% acceptance rate)
Beloit College (70% acceptance rate)
DePaul University (70% acceptance rate)
Hampshire (70% acceptance rate)
Ithaca College (70% acceptance rate)
Butler University (73% acceptance rate)
Goucher College (79% acceptance rate)
Arizona State U (83% acceptance rate)

I don’t know much about theater majors but I compiled this list from these web sites: Niche “Best Colleges for Performing Arts” and CollegeXPress “Colleges with Excellent Theater Programs” — and that certainliy would be a starting point list. The serious student would of course need to investigate further – and some of these programs may have audition requirement that make theme more selective than the overall admit rate.

If the student wanted to use their theater creds as a “hook” for a more selective college, they might deliberately target a college that is lower ranked on the “good theater major” lists but does still have a well-established program- perhaps a school that offers only a theater minor. . That’s still not going to get the kid into Yale, but a good theater resume might mean be a tip factor at a school that with acceptance rates in the 20%-40% band.

That doesn’t mean that the student can’t also apply to reach colleges --but the point is that the student needs to start with a focus on programs, not prestige — and along the way the student may realize that some of the less prestigious colleges actually have programs sthat would better meet their needs. Because the US News rankings doesn’t really tell the whole story.

And students really need to get away from the notion that their SAT scores should be dictating where they apply to college.

@calmom This is one of my favorite posts I have read here. Yes. This is exactly how students and their families should approach the college search process. I think kids need more of this kind of practical advice with actual examples. So much on here is accurate but vague. Have a safety, don’t over reach, be unique, etc. This post is really useful.

Reading CC on and off for the past 4 years, I’ve seen some pretty wild variations in what high schools do to weight a GPA. My own kids’ high school only gives a bump for actual AP classes (and by that, I mean a class where you take an AP test at the end of the year… while my nieces in Texas take ‘AP’ classes in 9th and 10th grade that are actually pre-AP). So at our hs, by the time you apply to college, the highest possible GPA might be around 4.2. (Let’s see - 7 classes in 9th grade x 4, plus 6 classes in 10th grade x 4 plus 1 x 5, plus 4 classes in 11th grade x 4 plus 3 (AP) x 5, divided by 21 classes = 4.19. And maybe if you are really really ahead you’d get 2 APs in 10th and 5 (really unlikely) in 11th, so 4.33, absolute max.

Anyway, I’ve gotten the sense that the ‘real’ number to look at is the unweighted GPA, and that it needs to be over about 3.8 or 3.85 for the tippy-top schools, at least for unhooked kids. On top of that you need to have also a rigorous course load for your high school. Wondering if that sounds about right to the rest of you? And if so… should we (parents /people who are into this stuff) make more of an effort to spread that word? I saw yet another post today here with a kid whose unweighted GPA was around 3.6 and people were encouraging her to apply to Ivy League schools. Give the girl some realistic options! And those kids who say their GPA is “4.6” but unweighted it’s only 3.6 or lower… they are getting unrealistic ideas of how they compare across the board.

@TheGreyKing:
“none of their low matches or high safeties came through- where they were in the top 25% of applicants by SAT/ACT and GPA.”

You can’t say any of those schools are low match/high safety just based on the individual stats. If those schools had an acceptance rate around 50% or higher, then yes, they would qualify as low match/safeties. If they have an acceptance rate more like 20%, then that means that they can pick and choose the unhooked kids they want in their class and would not be a safety for any unhooked kid.

I think the problem is not applying to “reaches”. The problem is forgetting that the schools are reaches in the first place. For all the reasons given above a certain hubris develops and the applicant feels they “deserve” to be accepted in opposition to all statistical logic. It is one thing to be disappointed and think “well I tried”. Another to be simply incredulous because you were sure you’d be accepted to at least one of them. That shows a sense of entitlement and a lack of understanding of just what a 4-15 percent acceptance rate means.

@washugrad, yes, that sounds about right. 3.8-3.9 unweighted GPA with the most rigor possible (at a regular HS in a well-off area–so not one of those super rigorous magnets/prep schools) and top 1 percentile stats gives an unhooked kid a decent shot in ED. SCEA and RD would still be brutal with no hook.

I’m enjoying the evolving consensus on this thread (not that y’all agree on everything). If I could be on an adcom, I would be looking for quirky and interesting kids – among those who otherwise meet some reasonable academic standards. Not the merely well-rounded, all-around talented kids or scholar-athletes (a trophy that I claimed in high school) but “well-lopsided” ones who are self-driven to spend a lot of time doing something that doesn’t get rewarded or promoted at school, and is not necessarily an organized competition. Students with a passion to learn something or make something.