Why applicants overreach and are disappointed in April...

Parents Forum
661

@homerdog – yes it worked - that’s the whole point – my daughter was accepted at all reach colleges I had identified as targets based on underenrollment of well-established departments, including her alma mater.

@doschicos - my point is that the applicant needs to identify their strengths or attributes-- and if their strength is in an area which is very common-- then consider whether there is a secondary characteristic that might be attractive to specific schools and can be identified in an application.

662

Yes, I get your point, @calmom. Do you get mine? Not every applicant has a “Russian language” type angle to work. I have one of those kids myself who had a niche, an angle to work but sometimes people’s strengths and attributes are more common/less esoteric. I have one of those kids as well. Very actively engaged with authentic interests but in more common ways. Also, there are valid reasons why students might want and need to apply to more than just several reaches. It doesn’t mean they haven’t identified fit between them and the school or haven’t done research on why the schools would be good for them and them for the school, and they’re not applying to many just for the rankings or prestige. Had your daughter taken Spanish or French instead, what would be the game plan?

663

If you somehow knew there was a shortage of students, what was that based on? A low number in that major in the graduation lists? Could you find the number of majors behind them, the juniors/sophs/freshemen already in the pipeline or close? That’s tricky. Did you know department trends like faculty going on sabbatical, taking on other responsibilities, or other factors that lightened their courseloads, (thus lessening the target student cohort for a year or two?)

As depts shift, yes, there can be a “need.” But there can also be a lull in need, based on factors few outside the institution might know. Obviously, we know there’s a glut of stem wannabes. In itself, that can bring attention to genuine humanities kids- (again, not just 'cause the say so, but they have the record that shows it, beyond just courses.)

But when I say research your match, to me it’s not that analytical. What else is going on, besides classwork and how are kids involved? What’s the local community bring to the mix? What out-of-class values does the college promote, in how it shows off current students’ activities, on and off campus? And more.

I see kids who don’t have the first idea of how they fit. I’ve said before, kids who answer a Why Us with, “I want X career and you have my major.” Or, “You’re a good/great/top college and I want a top college.” Or a host of other SMH things.

No, you don’t have to put in the same effort if appling to Podunk, which probably doesn’t have a high set of expectations.

664

The “game plan” would have been to identify colleges likely to accept her with what she had to offer.

My son didn’t have any niche… but he did have NM status and there are schools that really like NM Finalists. He also was male with strengths in sciences – but undecided as to major and wanting to attent a LAC … so LAC’s with a female/male imbalance were a good bet. (Particularly so for financial aid, it turned out ).

And if there isn’t anything like that, then develop a more reasonable college list.

Because if the applicant is unable to tell the ad com what makes him/her special enough to be admitted over all the others … how in the heck is a busy admissions reader going to figure it out?

Because the college admissions process is NOT random. Every single kid admitted to HYP was admitted because admissions readers saw something special that they liked in the application package. It may not always be to fill a specific institutional need - but it is never an accident. It’s not as if all of the applications above a certain qualifying threshold are tossed in a bin and then a few winners drawn at random.

Because if there isn’t a hook or an angle or a niche – then the odds of getting into HYP are a lot less than 20:1 — because there aren’t all that many spots left after the kids who are giving the admissions readers extra boxes to check off have been admitted.

665

Are you asking me?

666

Yes, @calmom
But your answer to doschicos does round out your thinking, for me.

Still, I’d caution that niche is hard for a stem wannabe to grasp. They tend to think (and be advised on CC) that you need major awards, to cure cancer, to get your name on a publication, and so on.

667

I get that but lets not make this thread all about just getting into HYP. There are plenty of other schools, still reachy these days, hence my previous example. My reason for bringing it up was because of comments like this “A large number of apps to reach colleges is just an indication of poor research, and those are exactly the kids who end up with a slew of rejections in the spring and feelings of despair”.

One can apply to more than a handful of reaches and it isn’t an indication of poor research and lack of effort in identifying strengths and attributes and how that aligns with what institutional needs. Note, I and others did include finding matches and likelies and researching those as well to have a balanced list.

We really need to make this thread about more than HYP+ or it just contributes to the prestige frenzy, IMO.

668

OK. (in answer to @lookingforward )

Basically I made friends with Google.

Here’s a link to the archived link to the Yale Daily News article from way back when that gave me the idea that maybe Yale could use a few more Russian majors-- http://web.archive.org/web/20050226220144/http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=24067

Maybe I read too much into that article, but somehow I took the quote from the Director of Undergraduate Studies that “We’d love to make the Russian major more popular” as positive sign for potential Russian-major prospies.

Here’s an example of a web page that I was able to use back then and it is still online:
http://carla.umn.edu/lctl/resources/summit/enrollment.html

(Note - even though the page is LIVE, this is NOT current info --the wayback machine shows the exact same data posted a far back as 2004 … I am just providing this as an example). But there was other data and other sites online also tracking and reporting on enrollment data- so this is just a good example of the kind of thing I could find.

It wasn’t a sure thing and I never thought it would be-- it was just info used to develop a college list. My daughter had other criteria - for example, she insisted on a an urban location. NY, Boston, Chicago, etc. Suburban could be considered; rural out of the question. DD also wanted a midsize to larger college. Need-based aid was a huge determiner.

But it isn’t about a specific language or interest. It was about developing a college list based on criteria that the college valued. If my daughter had been a STEM wannabe and not so stuck on an urban location, Bard would have been high on the list because at the time Bard was overtly trying to recruit STEM majors with generous financial aid offers. Again… all this was a dozen years ago. STEM is a great “niche” at all the artsy/humanities colleges that want to beef up STEM offerings.

Now, in 2018, Barnard has just built a brand new facility and added a computer science department and major – I’m sure they must have been looking very kindly on computer science applicants this year.

So bottom line – the colleges where admissions chances are greatest are generally not going to be the same as the colleges viewed as the “best” or most prestigious.

This doesn’t mean that a student can’t also include some reach colleges – of course mathy kids can continue to apply to MIT, Cal Tech, Harvey Mudd. The problem is when they don’t also figure out some colleges where their math skills are less common – and then end up grumbling when the only thing that pans out for them is the state u.

Bottom line: our process was to start with a list of college criteria that had nothing to do with rankings or prestige – identify the qualities that might be attractive to or appreciated by the college – and then use that to develop the college list. With application fees going to college where there was a reasonably good chance of admission.

It seems that a very large number of applicants work the other way around, with rankings & prestige being the starting point. So they end up in a very crowded field where chances are slim. And of course the results are exactly as the odds would predict – most of them get rejected.

669

A comment follows, but it is not intended to criticize your actions, calmom. As a university faculty member, I have a lot of information about departments in my field at the top schools. I go on sabbaticals and see things up close. My friends go on sabbaticals, and may even move to higher-ranked universities. I have not spent time at that many different universities, but I have a good idea of the type of searches to run on the web, for places I have never visited. So I believe that I have gained some information on various universities that is (in a sense) “inside track.” Other students’ parents could find the web information too, but knowing how universities run and where to look saves a lot of time, at the very least.

My comment is really directed at lookingforward’s remarks about applicant “savvy.” calmom’s daughter probably came across as “savvy” in her application, due to calmom’s way of approaching application season (as well as calmom’s daughter’s outstanding qualifications, mentioned on another thread, if not this one), and also due to the intellectual environment in the “cal” home that one can reasonably deduce from various posts.

While I realize that some students could have all of these advantages and still not flourish intellectually as calmom’s daughter did, I have to feel that a lot of calmom’s daughter’s apparent “savvy” at high-school senior age is the result of her parents’ efforts and ways of thinking.

It seems to me that some of the remarks by lookingforward could be viewed as berating applicants for not digging into all of the information that is out there on the web or from visits. Yet some of the students who do know a lot of that information do so because it has been suggested to them by parents or other adults, who have better insights into the universities.

I conclude from all of this that some applicants overreach because their families are uninformed about what the “big kids” are doing, and also uninformed about what the "big kids’ " parents are doing.

670

Both Calmoms’ kids, as well as my DS [ I also joined CC in 2004], were applying to colleges over 10+ years ago, before NPC’s even existed, before the Common app was used by all colleges, before highly selective colleges had acceptance rates below 15 % and before many of those same colleges had very generous FA.

We HAD to do a lot of research and had to be savvy in where we allowed our kids to apply if we wanted them to be able to go to great schools that we could afford. Both her kids and mine were very good students AND were lucky because overall it WAS less crazy competitive back then.

I believe the combination of both the Common app being so easy to use these days, [and the generous FA packages at a few highly selective colleges] has greatly contributed to the vast increase in the # of applications over the past 10+ years. Since there are hardly any more spots available at colleges now than 10 years ago, it has resulted in thousands more students applying where they statistically have little chance of acceptance- thus greatly increasing the # of rejections most will receive.

IMHO the wide use of the Common app is a disservice to both students and their families.

671

Adding to @QuantMech 's point, I spent a lot of time over the past year hanging out on CC and researching colleges, and this was on top of having some inside information to start with. I can’t imagine my son having the time to do this while being a top student with tons of ECs.

672

@menloparkmom why would you care whether more applicants who might otherwise not apply to selective schools be able to now? Sounds a bit elitist. Like we don’t want them applying at all…

673

I think the finances may be an even larger issue than the common app. The highly selective schools are the ones that meet full need. Beyond that HYP are the most generous in the nation, going beyond meeting EFC in many cases. For many students, its their best shot at a decent education. Why wouldn’t they apply?

674

“My question is : can he take a gap year and use the same materials on the commonapp to apply next year?”
Still no answer?

675

@cue123
“why would you care whether more applicants who might otherwise not apply to selective schools be able to now?”

My post was written In the context of this thread.
"Why applicants overreach and are disappointed in April…

Because I have seen the results, on CC in recent years, of too many kids applying to the SAME selective colleges, in part due to the common app , in part to their generous FA .The increase in anxiety is palpable.
Is a feeding frenzy good for anyone?

The REALITY today is its even harder to get into the top colleges than it was years ago, and therefore MORE kids are going to be disappointed.

So it falls to parents and others to let kids know, in no uncertain terms, than that they will, in all likely hood, be rejected by those tippy top colleges. Simply because of statistics.
If they are accepted, it should be treated as a “gift” , NOT something they “deserved” because they worked so hard and were qualified, etc. etc. Because under the current system, thousands of deserving, qualified kids just like them will ALSO be applying.
If kids STILL want to apply , then perhaps they will be better prepared for disappointment.

do you think it was Chicago’s best interest that they now use the Common app?
I dont.

676

“For many students, its their best shot at a decent education.”
A decent education can be found at most of the 3000 colleges in the US.

677

CU123, I’m with menloparkmom. Why do you want kids throwing their hats in the ring while blindfolded? What false empowerment is that?

QuantMech knows I’m not berating students, that I admire much about this age group. But if you want school X and wiil plead all this love, dreams, and desperation, at least be informed. Be that sort of thinker and doer. The bright ones get it. They don’t moan or blame their life conditions. I love 'em. They don’t say, “It’s toooo hard.”

But I’m advocating something a little different than calmom.
And I disagree it’s all a matter of parent involvement. Or that lower SES kids can’t. Or that, oops, you have time to apply to 20 colleges, but not to invest in learning more about your targets.

678

“The REALITY today is its even harder to get into the top colleges than it was years, ago and therefore MORE kids are going to be disappointed.”

The other reality is that in just a week the NACAC will publish a list of colleges who haven’t been able to fill out their classes with people they accepted + waitlisted. The top colleges are harder to get into, but kids today are ignoring quality colleges that they CAN get into in the rush to prestige. How do we as a society work to make kids more aware of the range of options?

679

"kids today are ignoring quality colleges that they CAN get into in the rush to prestige. "

^^^ THIS!!!

680

Only if you can afford it. The elite schools are where the FA is. But I have no argument with your point that a good education can be had at a multitude of schools.