Why applicants overreach and are disappointed in April...

Parents Forum
701

“I’m curious how the rest of your kids did match themselves to what their targets look for.”

We started this process fairly early, in my daughter’s sophomore year. I started a short list and for our first road trip we had private, public, small, large, rural, city schools, just to give her a taste to see what appealed to her. After that trip, my daughter took over the list. We ended up going to see 15 schools and she applied to 8- two reaches (one high reach, one low reach), two safeties, the other four some variety of high/med/low reach. Her #1 choice was actually a match school. (As an aside, I asked her what she would have decided if she had gotten into one of the reaches, and she firmly told us that she would still want school #1, no matter what. The helped us to be prepared when she left on the table more “prestigious” acceptances later). In terms of interests, she’s an academically very pointy kid and was drawn to STEM programs. Her guidance counselor told her what stood out for him was that she had taken the most science and math courses of any student in school history. We knew he would be highlighting that in his LOR. The only non STEM schools that stayed on her list were ones that had no core curriculum so she still had the opportunity to do the tech electives she wanted. She also preferred the schools that her AP and dual credits would take up the general ed requirements so she could take exactly what she wanted. She wanted a program that delved into engineering courses right away (she had the opportunity to take three in high school and loved them), that were focused on career readiness, and offered collaborative and interdisciplinary projects… oh and a high number of engineers studying abroad. She also wanted to ability to continue with music and music theater as a club activity or better yet, have some piano performance classes fill some of the out of college requirements. Once she had her list, she applied and was accepted into a competitive engineering summer program at her # 1 for rising seniors… She wanted to be sure they really were her #1 but it also ended up giving her a wealth of information to write about in the “why us” essay. She told them they were her first choice, was very, very specific about why, and focused some of her essays (there were so freakin’ many) around collaborative projects, highlighting what she had already done. This particular school also stressed on their engineering admissions site that they were also looking for good oral and written communicators and students who could thrive in an interdisciplinary team, not just with engineers. She took AP language, APUSH, AP euro, dual credit H Spanish III and scored very high in the reading/English sections of the ACT. Between that and her theater experience, she had an opportunity to point out that additional fit. Basically, she went all out for that application.

That said, she also researched what each and every school wanted and tailored her essays. There was clearly a lot of overlap but one school talked in a million places about being a family. She found articles that said that profs and admins generally just use their first names, and that staff collaborate in areas outside their fields, etc… She saw it first hand during her campus visit as well. She tailored her essay around that theme and how it fit with her own high school’s philosophy.

Aside from starting visits early, we were also given the advice to start the common app as early as possible. This was life saving advice for my daughter. She had the common app essay written, edited, and completed in the spring of her junior year, LORs lined up, and when the common app opened on August 1st, she got to work on the school specific essays. It gave her the time to be methodical. Once school started she was slammed with work, that it was all she could do to write the honors college essays that she was invited to apply.

Sorry this got so long!

PS. I know people here say not to have a dream school and we told her as much. She said she would have been happy going to any of the 8 on her list but she always had them ranked in her head.

702

I’m not sure they manipulate this to the extent some think. I don’t think any of us know what proportion of full pay kids apply. I think we all accept that relatively fewer very low SES kids do. But I do know that at the wealthier colleges, more is allocated to FA thsn they project needing. We saw this in some reports in late 2008.

I’m sensitive to this idea great low SES kids can’t create the same readiness or a good app. I’ve long questioned the stereotypes, based on my experience. Eg, some are convinced adcoms find expensive sports desirable. I’ve never seen an adcom comment in any way that reflects this. (Or the proverbial expensive one week service trip or a pay-to-play academic program, unless it was highly competitive to be accepted.) Ime, they’re looking for the rest.

703

In my view, calmom’s post #686 is correct when it comes to “savvy” applicants: “it begins with the environment that the child is raised in from infancy.” The intellectual environment in which a child grows up tends to be correlated with wealth, but there are exceptions in both directions. The fact that a family has a lot of money does not guarantee a rich intellectual environment. The fact that a family does not have a lot of money does not preclude a rich intellectual environment.

Hardly anyone is able to become “savvy” with respect to college admissions, based solely on their own observations about the world, and what they can learn in a typical American high school.

At the point of application, students can be assisted in thinking about their experiences and the most effective way to present them to colleges, if the “goods” are there in their experiences. But then the availability of informed assistance (or not) may tip the scale in one direction or another.

The life philosophy that surrounds the child has a strong influence. If there is a lot of emphasis in the family on doing things for others, a young person is likely to think along those lines (not 100% guaranteed, of course). If there is no emphasis on that, the student may encounter other adults who could broaden his/her outlook, but this may or may not “take.”

704

@labegg UF vs Clemson. UF admissions is very “holistic”. About 50% of admissions is based on academic factors, the rest is none academic factors, like volunteering, ECs, work, etc. You can make up for average stats with holistic factors. Clemson admissions is much more focused on stats, it puts more weight on test scores (ACT/SAT) than UF. Also, being in-state is “very important” in Clemson admissions, while it’s not at UF.

It’s a good example of how two different state flagships can have very different focus on admissions.

705

@lookingforward - SAT / ACT scores favor upper SES. The higher the score range for admitted students, the more the student body will skew toward higher income applicants. So that right there is an admission criteria which cuts toward wealth.

706

.i do agree with a lot of that, QM. But its not limited to family influence, per se. It can be teachers or inspired admins, church, community orgs, and more. In all sorts of ways, kids can have good records of doing for others, being part of outreach (not just on the receiving end,) engaged civically and more. They can and do stretch in academics.

The fact some top college may not see them matriculate (while more of the wealthy kids do) can be for many reasons.

And when I speak of match, I don’t mean the mission statement or promo materials. Nor actively tailoring an app to fake out or stretch small bits into bigger. More, how you determine your match and how it shows. Genuine. Relevant. I may give examples later.

707

Calmom, I see two things. The bar for SAT is lower than many think. That’s no help to the drab, do-little kid who misses the point, but can open doors for kids who otherwise exceed expectations. (Again, the college’s, not your high school.)
And I see score patterns rising among some low SES groups.

But highest std tests or not, match is more.

708

I don’t see the median score ranges of entering students going down. Overall, the colleges manage to bring in the same percentage of full payers year after year, even as college costs continue to outpace inflation.

709

@labegg Clemson was a match, but the issue is, match does not mean you get in, only that you have pretty good/better than average chance of getting in. The safety/likely schools are those that you have a 90%+ chance of getting into, so those would be surprising to get a denial at.

710

I have two kids who graduated from Harvard. Third one is applying to college next year. Two Daughters attended prep school and Harvard on full need based scholarships. Third daughter attend on nearly full need based scholarships. I can say prep school did provide nutruring environment. They were given tools to excel not only math and science but independent study beyond APs in math, science, history, english. Daughter’s were lucky that besides classroom they were given tools to engage outside of class room in meaning full way. And these opportunities were more important in learning skills necessary to advance in careers.

Despite all this I can not tell how does this work, no clue if a student can be admitted or not as competition is very brutal.

Since daughters were attending on full need based aid we know many many kids who atteneded these schools on substantial need based aid as daughters told their friends where they are coming from after all daughters were working while friends were vacationing. Except few most of the students were not judging them based on financial need as far as I know.

711

All I can say work hard, put best foot forward and keep trying to improve. Whatever people may say, but we are grateful for the policies that elite prep school and college have adopted.

712

I have always found @calmom posting very informative. As mentioned in post #686 by her, HYP and I will include MS indeed offer substantial superior need based aid. Hence they are extremely competitve. Many adults here who post are great resources and I listen to their advice with utmost interest. thanks for educating us.

713

I agree with your post #705, lookingforward.

As to why students whose families are at or below the median income might not matriculate at HYP: If they do, they will have to deal from time to time with seeing the effects of income inequality close up. I did not encounter this with my choice of undergrad school. But as a grad student I had some friends who were from the top 1% (not super-wealthy, though), and they had assumptions and experiences I did not share. They were definitely not flaunting their resources, just unaware that their resource level was actually pretty uncommon. It bothered me a bit at the time–not enough to be really problematic; but for a while, I felt bad about a question or two that they asked.

At HYP a student is likely to encounter students from some extremely wealthy families. Many Americans will not have had direct contact with people at that wealth level before. It can require some adjustment. I am not saying by any means that students whose families are at or below the median income should not go to HYP, just that there are bound to be some surprises concerning wealth distribution in America, and not all of them in the economics classes.

714

Sometimes, it may not be the applicants. If they come from a high school where counselors and teachers are not experienced in writing good recommendations, then the recommendation aspects of their application may hold them back compared to the recommendations from experienced counselors and teachers for other applicants.

Or it can be something like the SAT subject tests that are sometimes required. In high SES high schools where students commonly apply to colleges wanting them, counselors are more likely to tell students to take them at the end of 11th grade for courses they are just completing. In low SES high schools where successful college prep usually means going to the local community college or not-very-selective local state university, no one may tell the top student about SAT subject tests until it is too late to take them for colleges that require them.

Also, at least poster on these forums mentioned that she did not apply to any college that used CSS Profile for financial aid because she was suspicious of a financial aid form that cost money: http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/20940674#Comment_20940674

715

QM, I wouldn’t assume these kids are oh so woefully afraid of rich kids. Its another stereotype. They didn’t grow up under a rock.

And ucb, you’re focusing on the challenges, missing the triumphs. Many do that.

716

At HYP a student is likely to encounter students from lower income families as well. The H freshman survey usually indicates ~1 in 7 has a family income below $40k. However, I expect that in the vast majority of such encounters, student #1 has no idea what the family income of student #2 is.

I attended S, which like most private colleges, has a large portion of students from high income families. My family was well below the typical income for Stanford students. With only a few exceptions, I didn’t know the other students’ families. I didn’t know what their parents did for a living, whether they lived in a big/small house, what type of cars their parents drove, etc. Kids almost never flaunted wealth. If a student was wearing expensive designer jeans or something, I didn’t notice and it certainly didn’t bother me. There were some cliques, but as best I could tell they had nothing to do with wealth – more common interests, values, classes/athletics, or to a lesser extent race. One group that many did treat differently was celebrities, such as well known actors/actresses, but I expect this had much more to do with fame than wealth.

717

lookingforward, I don’t think the students themselves are afraid of “rich kids.” They probably haven’t encountered many of them–at least not at the higher levels of wealth that you can find at HYP.

We are okay financially, though not wealthy by any means. QMP was at Yale. She occasionally remarked on the fact that she was the least well-traveled of her friends. From my perspective (comparing her travel with my own experiences and my friend’s experiences, when we were growing up), she had traveled very extensively internationally before she started college.

I wasn’t at all afraid of “rich kids” when I started college, nor when I started grad school. Then in grad school, I encountered some quite wealthy people for the first time, and became aware of the possibilities that actual wealth opens up. I still was not afraid of them, but I did see how different their experiences were from mine, truly. I chose a different path–science instead of something highly rewarding financially, and I do not regret it.

Yet, I think there is truth in the writing of F. Scott Fitzgerald, “The very rich are different from you and me,” and it’s not Hemingway’s retort, “Yes, they have a lot more money.”

There is an article that appeared recently (maybe in the Atlantic?) written by a student who encountered people with wealth beyond his experience at Harvard as an undergrad. He wrote about how many students had Canada Goose ski jackets (I think that is the brand), and how he looked at some, and found that they started at about $800. His parka cost $20. He also wrote that students frequently lost their ski jackets, and they were mainly annoyed that they then had to get a new student ID, which had been in the pocket. F. Scott Fitzgerald’s characterization of the rich as “careless” rings true to me, of some people I have known. You can say, “How trivial,” and think that the Harvard student in question may have been better off for studying during breaks, rather than jetting to some exotic locale.

Many students want to go to HYP so that they can go into investment banking, or join white shoe law firms (in Cleveland, that would be “white belt” law firms). Some students who start out in STEM at Harvard recognize the financial limitations that this will likely impose and jump ship.

Which is all to say that I am not assuming anything. I am reflecting on family experience. If as an adult, I had stayed in my “birth” position in the family income/wealth percentiles, I would have thought long and hard about sending QMP to Y, no matter how inexpensive that would have made it. As it was, the eating clubs at Princeton made me uneasy for her. The influence of the parents on the decision cannot be overlooked.

718

I think in this money discussion a key point is being missed – a full-need met package at an elite school is still not enough to meet all the expenses a student might encounter. Here are a few:

  1. Travel: Sure, the package included a travel allotment in the calculation of COA, but is any part of that money being sent in advance? Because the airlines expect to be paid in advance for the ticket.
  2. And what about trips home during the school year? Again, financial aid package does include travel allowance...but not enough to pay for multiple trips --- Thanksgiving, winter break, spring break-- maybe the need to come home for a family event or emergency. Lower income students may have taken on a greater level of responsibility at home because of lack of family resources , and it may be more difficult to contemplate leaving for the entire school year.

3.And if the kid doesn’t come home over winter or spring break…where do they stay? Because if they thought they could just continue sleeping in their dorm room and eating in campus dinng halls, they may be in for a surprise. Even if the residence halls stay open during breaks, its quite likely that meal service is curtailed.

  1. Even moving in can be intimidating - parents on CC post threads about how they are planning to move their kids to college. Should one or both parents come along? What hotels should they book in the area? Me ... I drove my daughter to the airport and waved goodbye at the security gate. But then again my daughter had plenty of experience flying on her own, including multiple trips to visit colleges .... maybe the lower income kid has never been on a plane.
  2. Start up costs: Dorm room furnishings and bedding, warm winter clothing for kids coming from areas in the south & west with warmer climates --- all of these add up and may add up to a lot more than is covered by financial aid.
  3. Fun & Entertainment.. The financial aid package is designed to meet anticipated costs of necessities ... but is the kid coming to college to spend hours hanging out in dorm rooms and the school library while classmates are going out to local clubs and restaurants?

The elite colleges do a good job of offsetting the actual costs of attending college, but they don’t really address all the other economic limitations the lower income students are faced with.

Here’ something interesting from Harvard’s web site:
https://college.harvard.edu/financial-aid/how-aid-works/fact-sheet

55% of Harvard students receive need-based grants … but only 20% of those are going to kids whose parents earn under $65K annualy. The biggest band of recipients are those with family incomes in the $20K-$80K range … but some of that grant money is going to kids with family incomes as high as $200K – and there are many more students in the $160K-$200K income range getting Harvard aid than poverty level students with family incomes under $20K.

It’s not as easy as opening up an envelope and seeing that “all expenses” are covered. There simply are a whole array of collateral financial barriers to lower income students that probably aren’t even on the radar of people who take the availability of discretionary income for granted.

719

It’s interesting to contrast how the top boarding schools help very low income students. In addition to full scholarships, they often also provide transportation, free books, clothing allowance, a monthly allowance for spending money so they can grab a pizza or go to movies with friends and not be left out, transportation and lodging for parents to come visit during parents weekend. The idea is to make these students feel like part of the community not outsiders. Granted, they can’t get a part-time job during the school year like a college student can.

720

@doschicos “bravo” yes it is so true, that is why these kids when they graduate bring load of money back - Tang scholars at Phillips. One day Zuckerberg scholar ( well he was not on need based aid to exeter).