<p>I’m joining GFG and Boys on this point. My D was castigated on a sports website visited by other athletes, her friends, parents, and HS and college coaches, from around the country. She had a dismal performance in a key competition and wasn’t allowed to forget it. She was a 14 years old varsity athlete. A year later, this performance was discussed AGAIN on this website. I don’t know of other youth activities that put kids through this kind of scrutiny. I didn’t like it, but it’s part of the game. She can talk about it now, and has helped other young athletes in similar straits. Character building, yes, and also really painful.</p>
<p>No, riverrunner, this is not unique to spectator sports. Dance competitions have their own blogs & websites, wherein failures are also discussed, performers ridiculed, losses are not forgotten, etc.</p>
<p>No, certainly those websites are not as widely viewed as even a local newspaper, to be sure, but the failures are quite public within the large community of which those performers are members.</p>
<p>
Not me. I am just being ralistic here. Athletics in our culture hold entirely too much importance, in my view. Because of that fact, we put our young athletes through the wringer with crazy amounts of attention & criticism directed at them. That is character building, without a doubt.</p>
<p>Should this be the reality? No, I’d love to see more informed, intelligent audiences for youth arts endeavors. But I’d hate to see the pressure increased on the young performers. Imagine heckling from an audience when the soprano misses her high note? Thankfully that doesn’t happen. It does to high school athletes, though. If an actor flubs his lines, the director doesn’t come out with a big Vaudeville hook & drag him off the stage. But h.s. athletes are benched all the time, often follwed by a public chewing out by the coach.</p>
<p>Epiphany, I’ve already conceded that competitive dance, being a physically demanding endeavor, does seem to provide similar opportunities for obtaining the benefits of varsity sports. I really don’t think I, or anyone else, has been smirking. We also value music in our home.</p>
<p>However, D flubbed a note in a jazz solo this weekend and received no negative feedback whatsoever from anyone. Had that been an off track race instead, the impact on her would have been drastically different. I’m not saying that this is good or right, but simply the way it is.</p>
<p>Slightly off-topic, but I believe the NCAA ought to make competitive dance a sanctioned college sport. It has or can have all the attributes of other sports, and it would help out with Title IX (girls - and some boys - love to dance!)</p>
<p>Bay, I’d agree. Anecdotally, a girl from my D’s h.s. has never done sports becasue she was busy with the dance team. She joined spring track this year & her very first attempt at high jump, with no training, was either close to or passed the school record. (Can’t remember which. The school has never has a jumping coach, so the girls have just made it up!)</p>
<p>I’m glad that my son’s comments have generated discussion–he is a pretty deep kid although he doesn’t often show it on the outside.</p>
<p>His other comment about this thread is that he doesn’t understand it. He plays soccer/trains (the “beautiful game”) 20 + or so hours/week because , to him, it is beautiful and it is his passion. He always has a ball on his foot. When he watches TV, he does plyometrics or leglifts or pushups or crunches during commercials out of habit. He watches what he eats and drinks and when–the discipline it takes is incredible.</p>
<p>What he doesn’t get is why anyone would care about what he does…if someone is passionate about something different, than they should be involved with what makes them passionate. He knows he is a very good soccer player; he knows there will always be those better than him, and he is in awe of them. He doesn’t play because he care what an admissions committee might think.</p>
<p>He is in awe of those with good golf skills cuz his are awful. He is in awe of basketball players who can dunk and swimmers with a smooth butterfly. And he is in awe of his close friend who is in the conservatory at Oberlin and his friend who plays bass in the state symphony and his friend who has won several major photography competitions.</p>
<p>One other point that was made also rings true. In high school sports, the public eye makes it impossible for an athlete to hide.</p>
<p>Even though sports are a team endeavor, each athlete’s individual performance is critiqued. By the athlete, his teammates, his coach, the public, the media…the comments can be unforgiving. If you play poorly, you are singled out and publicly castigated by the coach and often by the crowd. If you are having a bad day, you are pulled off the field and watch your sub eat your playing time. It’s fairly humiliating if you are put back in, don’t do any better, and are pulled right off again. I’ve never seen that happen in a play or a concert.</p>
<p>If you miss a shot or your mark gets by you,it’s in the papers with a color photo to boot. I’ve never seen that happen to the first chair clarinet when he emits a hair-raising squeak by accident.</p>
<p>Sometimes jocks are portrayed as having big heads but my first-row seat has introduced me to a lot of jocks and most of them have a healthy dose of humility because they know that while they might rock the house one night, the next night might be the stuff of nightmares. They also develop a fairly thick skin and a lot of rock-hard resolve because those slings and arrows really hurt.</p>
<p>When D stopped in the middle of a big race because she pulled her hamstring, her coaches wouldn’t look at her or talk to her for 2 weeks they were so furious and disappointed. To this day, months later, they’re still angry about it. At the time, they told spectators and the school trainer that the injury was “all in her head.” As a result, since the coaches said so, now her teammates think she has a psychological hangup that rears its head in big races. The trainer tried to tell the coaches that she had felt D’s muscle defect and it was real, but they wouldn’t listen. “Who stops during the state championships?” they asked. It did not matter to them one bit that had she continued, she would have done significant damage to her leg. All that mattered was that they had had big expectations for her and darn it, she had let them down. The local newspapers gave her failure a headline. People I barely know mentioned the incident to me in the supermarket line. Every year from now on in the coverage of this meet, it will get mentioned, just as a similar incident involving an injury that occurred last year got re-visited this year. Regarding the latter, D was angrily accosted by a mother and daughter (a graduated athlete) as she crossed the finish line because they had taken the wrong way her description of the accidental collision that caused her to fall and hurt her knee a year earlier at the same meet. </p>
<p>I could go on and on. My point is just that some days it takes a heck of a lot for D to go back to practice, and face the coaches, her teammates, and the reporters. </p>
<p>Other EC’s can be hard, and sh** happens in many arenas, but nothing D has experienced while participating in the performing arts has ever approached this level of mental and emotional stress.</p>
<p>Ok, I admit it… I think you sports parents are nuts. I would never let my kids (minor children here, not adults in college) participate in a school sanctioned activity where the coaches and other adults involved did not put my kids safety or long term health first and foremost. Encourage kids to play with an injury? Suggest that a kid complete a race with a potentially serious physical problem?</p>
<p>Res Ipsa loquitor as they say… the coaches may be unbalanced and immature and completely devoid of reasoning, but the parents who allow their kids to spend quality time with these nut jobs must share some of the blame for the lunacy. You encourage your kids to get mental and emotional stress from an allegedly enjoyable EC activity?</p>
<p>I wouldn’t let my kids debate or chess coach drive them around the region to competitions in a car without seatbelts. This is nutty to me and statistically, probably more dangerous. The fact that the local papers are involved make it even more nutty.</p>
<p>blossom, I do agree with you. We were in the process of researching private schools so my D could transfer. Unfortunately, not only can’t we afford the tuition, but our state athletic governing board just ruled that an athlete who transfers must sit out a full year from every varsity sport in which s/he participated in their former school. So, if we move D she would lose out on the key year as far as recruitment goes. Now we are looking for private coaches to work with her, but haven’t yet found one. Most are already busy with school teams, or it would be a conflict of interest. Besides, if we pull her from the school team and put her with a private coach, she would not be permitted to compete in any conference or state meets at all. That would leave her with just one or two competitions where they allow “unattached” runners. We don’t have a lot of options if she wants to pursue her sport. It is easier to avoid school teams for well-organized sports like soccer in which there are a multitude of club teams. I’ve encouraged D many times to quit and do other EC’s. She has refused because this is her passion. So, she is just trying to ignore the immature coaches as best she can and do her own thing to the extent she can. For ex., right now I am requiring her to take a leave of absence to get away from them for a while.</p>
<p>GFG, I feel for you & your D. You are correct that for track, the high schools are where it all happens. Other sports have club teams as an alternative. You aren’t a nutty, pushy parent; your D LOVES to run & she is the catalyst here.</p>
<p>Regarding NJ transfers: I do know of a top Catholic school runner who transferred to another Catholic school closer to home. She did so for an easier commute, primarily. She was able to sit out about 30 days or so and then join the team. Antother Catholic school girl transferred to her local public, and was able to play after a short sit out period as well. That was in soccer. Both transfers took place over this summer. Is the one year suspension only enforced for public kids transferring to privates? Or is the rule brand new?</p>
<p>D’s school pays lip service to the “be all that you can be – scholar/athlete – strong mind/strong body model.” In reality, they put up roadblocks for girls who are well-rounded. D just had to give up her beloved sport because she has the lead in the school musical & nobody is giving an inch. I know your own D had to give up some musical groups that she loved because of unreasonable coaches. It’s a shame. </p>
<p>It’s wonderful when I hear about schools that are flexible for active, involved kids. Ours leaves total control in the hands of individual coaches & moderators, and the results are mixed.</p>
<p>There is no doubt that some coaches, parents, fans, and press take the sport a little too seriously. I would say however that most coaches do in fact have the student’s health and safety paramount. Many times it’s the athlete who gets injured and is trying their best to convince the coach that they can still play. Granted, with sports like track, swimming, etc… once the race starts it’s all in the hands of the athlete. If they pull a muscle or something similar, there isn’t any chance for a trainer or coach to make a call on the seriousness of the injury. It’s up to the athlete to either continue or not. More team oriented sports like football, basketball, baseball, etc… are pretty obvious when an athlete gets injured. Everyone on the field or court saw the collision, tackle, etc… Therefor, it’s usually more forgiven on the athlete’s part and they aren’t usually held accountable. Even in the newspaper. Especially when there’s a picture in the paper of the tackle or collision that caused the injury. </p>
<p>But we’ve all also seen those same kids who got hurt who are determined to go back out there and continue. I’ve seen my son as well as plenty of others come out long enough to get the trainer to stop the bleeding, bandage it up, and get him back out there. Playing with taped up fingers because one was dislocated and reset on the sidelines. Coming out of a game with a broken arm and cleared by the doctor 2 games later playing with a padded forearm cast. For sports like football, this is common. Now, there are some parents that won’t let their son go back in and play. For most however, they understand that high school varsity sports is not the same as an intramural or city league fun league. The kids are going to play sore and hurt. But in these sports, the athletes, coaches, and parents understand that there is a difference between being hurt and being injured. Cuts, bruises, dislocated fingers, etc… is HURT. It’s not injured. You play hurt. You don’t play injured. Obviously, race type sports like track there is no substituting in and out in between plays. Once the race starts, you have to be ready to go.</p>
<p>I also have to agree that the pressure and spotlight is a lot more intense with an athlete than with a musician for example. Both I and my son were both musicians and athletes. When he misses a field goal that could have won the game, people remember that and don’t let you forget it. However, when the athlete comes back from that adversity and kicks the next field goal, or makes the interception, or makes the 40 yard pass, etc… that does indeed win the game; that too is remembered for years to come. Parents, strangers, etc… congratulating for days and weeks to come. As a musician, I know first hand if during a concert If I wasn’t feeling good, I could fake my way through a number of measures. Jump in and out as I felt like it; knowing that there are a number of other musicians playing the same instrument that will cover and no one will know the difference. Every musician in a band or orchestra has done that at one time or another. If they say they haven’t, I think they are kidding someone.</p>
<p>No one is saying that an athlete is better than a musician, debater, chess, or any other extra curriculum. They are just different. All the EC’s are different. Trying to compare one against another is like comparing apples to oranges. You can’t; they are different. Sports are very highly followed by fans and the media. To compete in a battle is our nature. We have evolved to where no one wants to have a real war where people die; although that too happens; but mankind in just about every culture in the world has that battling, winning, competition attitude that is innate to them It’s part of who we are. True, not every person on the planet is as passionate about it, but it is there. That is why things like the olympics, superbowl, world series, etc… are so popular all around the world. No, it’s not the camaraderie or coming together of different nations that some say is what makes the olympics so popular. It the nationalism, competition, and the “thrill of victory and agony of defeat” that we as humans thrive on.</p>
<p>GFG, so sorry to hear this news. Fortunately, your D has already posted times that will put her in great position for college recruiting, if that’s her dream. </p>
<p>We have the same rules about loss of eligibility for kids who change schools. The only way around it is to physically move to a house within a different school boundary. I guess this protects programs from becoming magnets/powerhouses. I still think the deciding factor should be what is best for the child, and not just from a competitive sense, but emotionally as well. A mismatch between athlete and coach seems like a valid reason for change. I’ve tried to argue this locally and gotten nowhere. </p>
<p>My thought are with you and your D.</p>
<p>As far as time commitment- most applications call for the student to report the number of hours per week spent on the activity. During season, my kids spent a minimum of 20 hours per week on their sport outside of school. They both did music as well, but not marching band (which is a huge time commitment)- youngest was an all state musician. Neither practiced outside of school for more than an hour a day on average. So that level of commitment was in fact reported to colleges.</p>
<p>The public critique that a student athlete receives is unrelenting. I had a friend who complained once that athletes get all the ‘press’. I told her to be careful what she wishes for- it’s not all glorious, and you have to be willing to accept the bad with the good. I’m a pitcher’s mom, and it ain’t fun to see that big “L” next to your kid’s name in the morning paper. Like rubbing salt in a wound.</p>
<p>Hey, the parents of the gymnasts and ballet dancers who end up with serious eating disorders all claim, “she’s just following her passion”. I call it denial but what the hey.</p>
<p>We know a former dancer/anorexic who has just learned that she’s infertile a few years into her marriage. Fertility specialists claim that the years of brutal physical workouts and malnutrition are to blame. Maybe or maybe not. But she was 12/13 when she made the decision to compete at the levels that she did-- hardly the age of consent for a decision as weighty as to whether she’d want to preserve her fertility down the road.</p>
<p>Your kids are all closer to adulthood so maybe they’re making the right decison for them, who knows.</p>
<p>It’s hard to see the connection between a random pulled hamstring that a coach questions in a fit of disappointment and years of eating disorders that are overlooked by both parents & coaches to the point that they are embedded in the ballet/gymnastic culture.</p>
<p>Sticker, the connection is that parents often buy into a culture (or sub-culture) under the guise that “hey she’s pursuing her passion”. You are the only people on earth who get to have your kids best interests at heart; don’t abrogate that responsiblity to a coach, a private teacher, a scout leader, an agent or manager (where the hell are the parents of a lot of the teenage actresses and models who are on their third round of rehab? Their managers gave them whatever drug they’re on to help them keep their weight down and energy level high enough for 18 hour days on the set??? C’mon, these are minors we’re talking about…). </p>
<p>It is intoxicating to hear that your kid has talent. Don’t drink the Kool Aid, that’s my POV. You are entitled to yours.</p>
<p>Christcorp says,“As a musician, I know first hand if during a concert If I wasn’t feeling good, I could fake my way through a number of measures. Jump in and out as I felt like it; knowing that there are a number of other musicians playing the same instrument that will cover and no one will know the difference. Every musician in a band or orchestra has done that at one time or another. If they say they haven’t, I think they are kidding someone.”</p>
<p>Yes, in a large ensemble. Even played a solo, or in a string quartet? Even tried to fake your way through that?</p>
<p>I’m not going to go round and round with you people, because it’s obvious to me, by your continuing to divert attention away from the unrelenting PHYSICAL training that PHYSICAL e.c’s entail, (i.e., the athleticism required) you either do not wish to understand the demands of the training, or prefer to set up hierarchies. (That is, when I discuss the 10-15 year athletic training involved in some physical activities, you switch the discussion to sitting in some hidden section of an amateur student orchestra where you will never amount to anything, or being on a debate team for a couple of years, or taking piano lessons. Amazing.) Believe what you will about the supposed unparalleled glory of sports. At this point I’m more interested in a different debate, because it really does speak to values, and what colleges do value in various e.c.'s (including sports, obviously).</p>
<p>Interesting, that is, about the aspect of being public as “added value,” if you will (because of added risk). On the one hand it could be argued that a more public face on an activity requires more courage. Many posters here have given examples, and that’s fine. OTOH, as (again) an annual interviewer (and reader) for leadership scholarships, I tend to be impressed, and humbled, by the non-public achievements of the courageous & generous students whom I interview. Really, it’s quite moving. These students do not get “press.” When/if their “cause” is struggling or floundering, sure, they’re not “ridiculed” in a newspaper. (Personally, I haven’t noticed a lot of <em>media</em> ridicule of high school athletic teams, for heaven’s sakes; I do read about high school sports now & then because we have friends in those activities. I would find it irresponsibly cruel of a <em>newspaper</em> to “ridicule” student athletes. Businesses who do such things really need to get a life, & I have no respect for that.)</p>
<p>Conversely, though, when my interviewees sacrifice their studies, their recreation, & more lucrative employment, to contribute quietly to the globe in ways that surpass what the vast majority of very educated & privileged adults are doing, no one writes them up in the newspapers. (Or extremely rarely.) There is no Thrill of Victory for which people slap them on the back and have wild parties over. That counts hugely in my book, and let me tell you, that it counts hugely to colleges as well. They really get it. And I’m not talking about those expensive, parent-paid-for “community service” trips to obscure countries; I’m talking about the quiet long haul and the fact that I’m grateful more than words can say that there are young people out there who define the term “service” by their very being, and who know that real leadership actually entails very little glory and very much sacrifice.</p>
<p>So I have no problem with the original question: Why are athletic EC’s so valued? Indeed they are. They are valued for precisely the reasons laid out in some of the few more intelligent & informed posts on this thread. But they are not, by themselves, valued more than other activites. (Not being argumentative, just trying to answer the OP’s question.) I’m only referring to the word “so” in your question. If they were “so” valued relative to other varieties of contributions to the world, they would be ranked as more valuable; admissions officers would continually talk about them at rep meetings and on CC – & admissions reps often post on CC.</p>
<p>Given a high level of accomplishment in any activity, the colleges “so” value…
(a) sports, for unique reasons
equally with
(b) the arts, for unique reasons
equally with
(c) community service, for unique reasons</p>
<p>(This is setting aside the factor of athletic recruitment or star performing artist: those, like major donor or celebrity, change the equation.)</p>
<p>Inasmuch as there have been some posts which refine some of the particulars of sports & its ramifications, this thread has been instructive. When it has set up uninformed & artificial “contrasts” it is less helpful, i.m.o. & thus a little misleading for students who may be choosing between & among e.c.'s (if they are).</p>