<p>I would like to try to focus the discussion a bit. I believe that colleges and universities offer significantly better financial aid and/or admissions preferences to recruited athletes than they do to other students with similar academic credentials and EC’s requiring comparable amounts of time and dedication (including non-recruited athletes).</p>
<p>We can argue about whether they should or should not do this, but surely there is no one arguing that they don’t, is there?</p>
<p>Yeah, well in our high school the marching band is given a budget allocation (ie. this money is not from their own fundraising) that is many times the size of the allocations for academic departments. Guess it all comes down to the fact that the general public has access to information about how well the marching band performed at their weekend competitions or the football team at the Friday night games. This is news. We never read news reports on how many students passed their social studies exams during a given week. And only once a year do we see a school report card evaluating academic performance. It’s the same thing with colleges.</p>
<p>They entire school is like that there are probably less than 1000 total varsity Athletes, probably more like 500-700. All of their budgets comes from ticket sales, royalties and booster club donations. It does not take away from any other programs. Before you criticize something please try to get your facts right. You are blatantly wrong on this issue.</p>
<p>It’s all about $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.</p>
<p>Sports can directly raise money (TV and other revenue) and success and tradition in sports is used to separate alumni from their wallets.</p>
<p>U of Southern California and U of Florida are two prime examples of schools that have parlayed sports success into money and popularity and increased student applications, rankings etc. Sports success is a huge lure in many ways.</p>
<p>As to the student-athlete (who I feel are more typically athlete-student) there are many positives and negatives to that experience, which becomes the choice of the individual to weigh. That they get some “break” vis-a-vis admissions is a small benefit given the enormity of time and effort they must commit as the athletes and foundation of the school’s sports activities and (back full circle) to the money, prestige etc. generated for the school by those sports activities.</p>
<p>Naz-
Your school may be one of the few exceptions regarding how athletics are financed and whether they are self-sustaining. How athletics are financed is a very complicated matter depending on what numbers you are counting and what you are leaving out. When a multi-million dollar stadium is built, the cost is often not figured into the athletic budget, but gets counted elsewhere. It is also questionable that big-time college sports operate with tax-exempt status. At some point, some of these college operations are indistinguishable from professional sports.</p>
<p>Vango-
Mine is pretty typical of D1 schools. I know for a fact that this is how the other Big 10 schools operate. The way this happens is that the amount of money that is generated from football is put back into other sports and some is even given back to the schools general operating budget. Building stadiums is all not something that happens that often and it is calculated into the athletic budget. Additionally with the exception of the football stadium all of our facilities are either used for other things or are open for recreational purposes when not in use. Im not sure why they should not be opperation tax free.</p>
<p>I just bought William Bowen’s book “Reclaiming the Game” and he makes an interesting point about our growing obesity: because the country overvalues athletics, youth sports are becoming more and more “professionalized” and as kids get older the opportunities for the majority of the kids get less and less as only the most talented kids get to move on. Hence, more kids get cut out of sports because they are not good enough to play which then leads to more obesity. </p>
<p>This argument makes sense to me. Certainly at our hs, kids get cut from teams. Even if you are able to play JV, if you haven’t made Varsity by senior year, you can’t play at all. I don’t know what policies other schools have. </p>
<p>Also, I noticed that community soccer got pretty competitive by about second grade - not that a kid couldn’t play, but that coaches and parents would make disparaging remarks about the less talented kids and never play them. What is that teaching small kids?</p>
<p>Bok, former president of Harvard, states in his book, “Universities in the Marketplace” that: it is very rare for a university to make money on its athletic program.</p>
<p>“Also, I noticed that community soccer got pretty competitive by about second grade - not that a kid couldn’t play, but that coaches and parents would make disparaging remarks about the less talented kids and never play them. What is that teaching small kids?”</p>
<p>Yes!! That I agree is a sickness in our system.</p>
<p>Naz-</p>
<p>If you go to the NCAA website, you will find that the vast, vast majority of schools do not have self-sustaining athletic programs. If you have evidence to the contrary, please let me know where I can read it.</p>
<p>doubleplay-</p>
<p>The competitiveness of youth sports is getting increasingly ugly…perhaps that is why I wonder where this athletics focus is taking us as a country. We used to look at sports figures as heros, and while I recognize there still are athletes to whom that title can be applied, there is also a very dark side to all this. If the “win at any cost” message replaces “it’s not whether you win or lose, it’s how you play the game” message, where are our children heading?</p>
<p>Vango,</p>
<p>I agree regarding the kids’ sport becoming too competitive, but I don’t think its the whole story on obesity by any means. Another contributing factor which is obvious in our area is that, due to budget cuts, the public elementary schools offer only one hour of P.E. per WEEK! Also, our high schools only require P.E. in 9th and 10th grade, and those classes are so lax that all one needs to do to earn an “A” is to show up in your uniform everyday. (You should see the classes “run” the mile in 50 minutes! Ha!)</p>
<p>“But sometimes the system is wrong and the right thing to do is to try and change it.”</p>
<p>But is the system wrong? That may be just your opinion, an opinion isn’t necessarily fact or true. It’s an opinion. </p>
<p>" Let’s say you could prove in a quantifiable way that the focus this country places on athletics is hurting academic performance of the country as a whole."</p>
<p>I don’t feel atheletics hurt this country or it’s performance. In fact, this country would be much safer if we encouraged sports amongst other countries to build a dialog (remember ping pong diplomancy?) </p>
<p>Being a person who had the oportunity to travel abroad and play rugby I don’t think your statement is valid. I had an opportunity to respresent my county to alot of different people via sport. One of the greatest experiences of my life. Playing rugby in a foriegn land, going back to the clubhouse to “heal” with a pint of beer. 
and talk not about rugby but life there, politics and women. </p>
<p>(sidebar thought Do you think it bugs mexicans that the US has more everything economically than Mexico or that they haven’t scored a goal in almost 10 years or won a game on American soil? ) Sports are important in many ways. </p>
<p>I learned more about a people than a newsprogram or textbook would ever teach me. Through sport, I discovered. So no I disagree with your comments about sport being a deteriment to our country or any country for that matter.</p>
<p>" Wouldn’t it be worth reassessing priorities and making changes?"</p>
<p>One persons priority is another persons no big deal. Again, your making an arguement to fit your view of the world. Even our current pres is finding out, even with all that power, he can’t change the world to fit his view. People resist. </p>
<p>My experiences in both the arts and sports is different. If I could I would make everybody learn another country’s favorite sport and make them go play it. Or their dance and go do it. A better appreication of others and what they do opens your mind far more than the current path. Plus you get to sing in alot of pubs and halls:) we differ in view because our lives and experiences are different. </p>
<p>“This argument about athletics isn’t just occurring here on CC, there is plenty of national debate about college athletics being out of control”</p>
<p>…and arts, and business and ethics and kids and culture and why my dog wees every time I come home… (all out of control) especially the dog. ah my rug… </p>
<p>Americans like to argue, we just don’t see it that way. We’re more french than the french.</p>
<p>Vango,
In our case, you work on the problem from the inside. Raise kids to be good teammates, help less experienced players, support each other. Volunteer to coach and do it right.</p>
<p>Opie-</p>
<p>Well, you are right in saying that my point of view on this is just my opinion. And this is a forum to discuss things. I posed a question in my intial post, because I wanted to try to view my opinion from different angles that others can provide. I don’t feel any hostility to anyone whose opinion differs from mine and I actually find this conversation very enlightening. I may modify my opinion based upon some of what I’ve read here (I also might not!)</p>
<p>We all have different experiences in life that shape our opinions and sports have been great for you. For that Sicilian police officer that died during the recent soccer match in Italy, sports have not been so kind.</p>
<p>Anyway, I have nothing against athletics…I just remain unconvinced that the link between higher education and athletics is necessary to the degree it is. There are universities in countries around the world that are vibrant and interesting places and have no athletic teams. Yet those countries are just as interested in sports as we are. There are other ways to play sports.</p>
<p>Okay, I’m just going to jump in here for the fun of it. </p>
<p>I think that the place to attack these issues is not what the colleges do, but how America’s values are skewed toward professional sports, which is really nothing more these days than professional entertainment a la Hollywood. Just higher-paid than other forms of entertainment that might actually enrich our spiritual lives, like the fine and performing arts (leaving television and big-studio movies, for the most part, in the same box as professional sports. The colleges are just a reflection of America’s priorities. </p>
<p>I think it is interesting to see what is happening at Stanford. Traditionally the epitome of a successful blend of top-level athletics and academics, as the school has become more and more academically competitive, the admissions office is more and more denying admission to top athletes who cannot compete at the top level academically. Thus a clear decline in the competitiveness of its football, basketball and baseball teams. Some alumni praise this turn of events as Stanford re-finding its core values, while others are furious about it. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out!!</p>
<p>Van,</p>
<p>I was just getting ready to go through your last post and take it apart when I realized you still a young person with a set of ideals vs a set of “is”.</p>
<p>When you get to be an adult and have a chance you can make improvements in situations you feel are wrong. I spent many years creating opportunities for all kids to play sport (soccer) for fun, for competition, for s its and giggles. If you want to and can convience others to help you can make your ideals part of what “is”. </p>
<p>To do so, you will have to be willing to give up alot of time, listen to alot of complaints, most not really valid in the light of day, and steer everything towards your ideal. But to move people towards your ideal, the ideal has to be selfless, not selfish. You have to think of the other guy.</p>
<p>Vango,</p>
<p>Since the only argument still being offered for preferential treatment of recruited athletes in admissions and financial aid is that athletics are a good thing to do, and since withdrawing preferential treatment will hardly get rid of athletics in college, I think you could easily declare victory.</p>
<p>doubleplay-</p>
<p>been there, done that. The problem is one “rotten” coach can infect the whole team. Also, because schools often so identify with the strength of their athletic teams, they allow players to get away with really bad behavior. A case in point - the Duke lacrosse players already had a whole host of behavioral violations against them - there is no way they should have been having a beer party with strippers. Yes, I know other students drink too, but these were a bunch of athletes living in a house together and the coaches could have kept on top of them.</p>
<p>Our hs has a no drinking policy for athletes, but it is never enforced, because they wouldn’t have enough players to fill out a team if they did. Most weekend games are celebrating with a party, the main focus of which is drinking - pictures following on myspace, facebook.</p>
<p>Um last time I checked the vast majority of college students drink not just athletes.</p>