<p>Well put, Cheeringsection. (And welcome!)</p>
<p>Your hyperbolic statements that it’s a better class of people (not a better group of students, but a better class of people) at selective schools who don’t drink, smoke, eat too much, etc. and your lack of understanding that the drop-out rate at less selective schools isn’t necessarily due to partying-til-dawn but the reality that a lot of students at those schools have to float in and out because they don’t have money. </p>
<p>Your commentary about our Maine lobsterman’s lifestyle, implying that he could just “buy a used car every 8 years instead of 4” and stop upgrading his electronics and taking nice vacations to send his kid, instead of the reality that our Maine lobsterman is already living a frugal lifestyle and there just isn’t more to give.</p>
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<p>I agree. I <em>want</em> to give them this gift; it was given to me and I get a great deal of pleasure in passing it on. Which means that I will do my personal utmost to pass it on. But what I as an upper middle class professional need to “sacrifice” for this to happen isn’t nearly the level of what our Maine lobsterman would have to sacrifice, and I’m not willing to say he doesn’t love his kids as much as I do because he’s not willing to sacrifice his financial security.</p>
<p>I agree with you, Pizzagirl. But my sympathy for the Maine lobsterman will decline if he talks about how he doesn’t owe his children anything. That is an attitude that is alien to me. If he’s doing his best for his kids, who can criticize him? But even a Maine lobsterman might not be doing his best, and I, for one, reserve to myself the right to judge him or anybody else about anything. Otherwise, why participate in these conversations?</p>
<p>^^In fact, IMHO, he’s showing more “love,” or consideration, to his kids by not risking everything for them and increasing his financial security and ability to be self-supporting in retirement.</p>
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<p>for the opportunity to brag about our kids? That’s my reason. :)</p>
<p>also the opportunity for judginess of course ;)</p>
<p>so about this skin in the game idea :eek:</p>
<p>My husband worked full time, completely supported himself and put himself through college in a time and place where that was still possible. I doubt it would be today. His response was not that our children needed “skin in the game” but the opportunity to focus on their studies without worrying about outside obligations. And he wanted them to have time for a social life. I asked, “how will they ever learn responsibility?” and he answered, “so far they seem pretty responsible.” The kids ended up with a much higher GPA than my husband and they took more classes. They are graduated with advanced degrees, self-supporting and fairly successful. They seem to have not needed any “skin in the game” for motivation.</p>
<p>I feel it’s my “responsibility” to pay for my kid’s college to the best of my ability. I don’t know that “owe” is the right word, though. However, I never thought that meant that I had to send them to the best college* as defined by someone else*. </p>
<p>Fortunately I haven’t been in Maine Lobster Fisherman’s position, so I really can’t say for sure how I would approach college costs if it meant going into debt, much less extreme long term debt. However, that’s my feeling on it and I absolutely don’t feel that my way is the only legitimate viewpoint. We all come at this from different backgrounds, cultures, personal education history, etc. </p>
<p>What I find offensive about the OP’s comments is that he never addresses the fact that most people have two or more children and how that could legitimately affect their willingness to take on long term debt, and his equating a a willingness to sacrifice their retirement funds to LOVE for their children. Absolutely obnoxious imo, and I have to think this whole thread was created to stir the pot.</p>
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I, clearly, don’t have children, but “Give children full pay towards most prestigious college” is not on my list on “What (Will) Makes Me A Good Parent”. </p>
<p>Rather, when I have children, I will instill the value of education and the continuous pursuit of knowledge. I will support them in ways that I see fit. This may not mean that I will take out a $80,000 loan for them, but I will help them out enough that won’t break the bank and that will allow me to be their financial safety net. </p>
<p>I simply believe that if a child is going to expect me to pay for their college education that they put work in as well. That means finding grants, scholarships, and the like to lower the final price. I agree with Cheeringsection with how you children need to create their own success, for it is their future.</p>
<p>If parents overextend themselves in paying for college to the point they have no financial safety net to offer their children, that doesn’t seem to me very good parenting. Sometimes there may be no choice. That situation I’m not judging.</p>
<p>I’m judging my early retiring relative who is paying $0 as far as I can tell. I am positive, because of his circumstances, he absolutely owes his children more than that.</p>
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Of course. That’s what we all do. I just feel capable of forming opinions about the reasonableness of what other people choose to do. Sometimes I just have to shrug my shoulders and realize that people have different ideas from me. But sometimes my feelings are stronger, especially if the person is a hypocrite (like somebody who had parents who paid for everything and now wants his own kids to have “skin in the game”). I’m also willing to recognize that people may have good reasons for decisions that, from the outside, seem to me to be stupid or pernicious. That’s also what these discussions are for.</p>
<p>Hunt: I am positive there are no extenuating circumstances. Positive.</p>
<p>In this case I don’t really care about hypocrisy. I think it damages the parent/child relationship as well as limiting opportunities. Since we frequently model behaviors with which we are familiar, I think it may impact the next generation. There may be fall-out into the next two generations. Maybe that is a bit dramatic. Maybe not.</p>
<p>alh, I believe you. I’ve seen some similar things in my own family.</p>
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<p>Perhaps the OP sees another type of two (or more) kid situation – the parents overspend on the first kid’s Expensive College, so that there is only enough to left for the second kid to go to Less Expensive Less Prestigious College, so the OP would prefer it if the parents went into deep debt to pay for the second kid to go to Expensive College.</p>
<p>Obviously, this is either bad planning by the parents or bad luck in investment losses significantly reducing the value of the college fund for the second kid, but it is not necessarily the case that going into deep debt is the best way to go forward.</p>
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<p>Good point. I think it’s possible (at least for me) to look at people where I know they make appreciably less than my household does, and hold both of these thoughts in my head -
“Well, I get why they can’t just up and send their kids to elite schools full-pay” and
“But, you know, they *could cut down on their spending - they have a car as nice as I do and I’m in a different financial situation”</p>
<p>It doesn’t always have to be about money. We can “owe” our kids some things that have no monetary value whatsoever.</p>
<p>ETA: not a criticism of your post. I like all your posts on this thread.</p>
<p>ETA + 1: Recently I learned the early retiring relative’s son had purchased from his father a classic sports car they had spent his teen years restoring together. Fine. Sounds reasonable. EXCEPT the relative spent his teen years restoring a car with his Dad which was then given to him and he took it to college. It was a car that “made the girls look to see who was driving” The restoration was intended as busy work to keep him out of trouble and as a bonding experience. imho. I have absolutely no idea what he thought it was all about. His kid had to buy his own used car for college. He couldn’t afford to buy the “special” car from his dad until he was finished with professional school. He has loans to pay off, but really wanted that car. It is really not that valuable. I have no idea what it represents to him. I know it isn’t really about money in this situation.</p>
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Yes, yes, yes!</p>
<p>Say you have a gifted child who is applying to colleges. Family income is, say, $80K but you have a lot of debt. You know in advance that you either can’t or won’t pay for a school that is a good academic fit for your child. (You live in a state with an undistinguished state system, not even a decent honors college.) Is the discussion different if it is a “can’t” versus a “won’t”? Do you allow your child to even apply to an expensive school? When do you begin that discussion? Some kids might take the news in stride but what if your child reacts with sadness? With anger?</p>
<p>This is a question that might be of interest to parents of prospective freshmen.</p>
<p>I actually have a relative in this situation. She is a high school sophomore, probably first or second in her class of 400 students. Mom is divorced, low-paying job, live-in boyfriend can’t contribute much. She plans to send her daughter to a community college for two years, then a state school in NY. Daughter has her heart set on Harvard (probably unrealistic). I suggested one of the state divisions at Cornell but they probably couldn’t swing that. I’ve even considered contributing myself to her college costs but then what do I say to all my other relatives going through their school systems?</p>
<p>Here are the top 35 state schools in Parent PLUS Loan disbursements during Q4 of 2012-13</p>
<p>$3,344,125.00 UNIVERSITY OF TEXAS AT AUSTIN
$2,789,947.00 ARIZONA STATE UNIVERSITY
$2,708,856.00 GEORGIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY
$2,584,425.00 MICHIGAN STATE UNIVERSITY
$2,316,474.00 UNIVERSITY OF ALABAMA
$1,922,446.00 UNIVERSITY OF COLORADO BOULDER
$1,888,504.00 AUBURN UNIVERSITY
$1,857,385.00 UNIVERSITY OF NORTH TEXAS
$1,679,608.00 UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, IRVINE
$1,586,559.00 UNIVERSITY OF ILLINOIS AT URBANA-CHAMPAIGN
$1,551,351.00 UNIVERSITY OF OREGON
$1,540,873.00 WASHINGTON STATE UNIVERSITY
$1,471,874.00 OREGON STATE UNIVERSITY
$1,455,475.00 PURDUE UNIVERSITY
$1,438,556.00 UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA - TWIN CITIES
$1,354,907.00 TEXAS A&M UNIVERSITY
$1,353,870.00 UNIVERSITY OF CINCINNATI
$1,286,287.00 UNIVERSITY OF PITTSBURGH - PITTSBURGH
$1,260,623.00 WEST VIRGINIA UNIVERSITY
$1,253,562.00 UNIVERSITY OF MISSOURI - COLUMBIA
$1,174,371.00 UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, LOS ANGELES
$1,107,447.00 WESTERN WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY
$1,084,199.00 UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, BERKELEY
$1,066,632.00 OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY (THE)
$1,065,033.00 COLORADO STATE UNIVERSITY
$1,045,863.00 UNIVERSITY OF KANSAS
$1,035,168.00 OHIO UNIVERSITY
$996,748.00 PENNSYLVANIA STATE UNIVERSITY (THE)
$963,001.00 INDIANA UNIVERSITY - BLOOMINGTON
$957,603.00 UNIVERSITY OF IOWA
$934,993.00 UNIVERSITY OF GEORGIA
$871,502.00 UNIVERSITY OF TOLEDO
$866,273.00 UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, SANTA BARBARA
$834,154.00 UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, MERCED
$807,047.00 CENTRAL WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY</p>
<p>same - for private schools</p>
<p>$6,413,077.00 DREXEL UNIVERSITY
$2,934,346.00 CULINARY INSTITUTE OF AMERICA
$2,647,081.00 NEW YORK UNIVERSITY
$2,409,833.00 EMBRY-RIDDLE AERONAUTICAL UNIVERSITY
$2,373,523.00 DEPAUL UNIVERSITY
$2,117,907.00 NORTHEASTERN UNIVERSITY
$2,102,199.00 ART CENTER COLLEGE OF DESIGN
$1,851,570.00 BERKLEE COLLEGE OF MUSIC
$1,796,122.00 AMERICAN MUSICAL & DRAMATIC ACADEMY
$1,756,051.00 NORTH CENTRAL COLLEGE
$1,686,293.00 UNIVERSITY OF NORTHWESTERN OHIO
$1,483,834.00 HOWARD UNIVERSITY
$1,332,456.00 UNION COLLEGE
$1,331,061.00 NEW ENGLAND INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY
$1,325,082.00 KEISER UNIVERSITY
$1,289,040.00 COLUMBIA COLLEGE
$1,166,089.00 MASS. COLLEGE OF PHARMACY & HEALTH SCIENCES
$1,125,771.00 LA SIERRA UNIVERSITY
$1,062,877.00 UNIVERSITY OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA
$1,058,781.00 TEMPLE UNIVERSITY
$1,014,689.00 LOYOLA UNIVERSITY CHICAGO
$969,235.00 BAKER COLLEGE
$937,300.00 SAVANNAH COLLEGE OF ART AND DESIGN
$844,116.00 WENTWORTH INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY
$810,151.00 HOFSTRA UNIVERSITY
$785,023.00 NOVA SOUTHEASTERN UNIVERSITY
$772,216.00 UNIVERSITY OF SAN DIEGO
$747,752.00 KNOX COLLEGE
$719,358.00 LONG ISLAND UNIVERSITY
$706,672.00 AMERICAN UNIVERSITY (THE)
$690,736.00 UNIVERSITY OF MIAMI
$664,310.00 DUQUESNE UNIVERSITY OF THE HOLY SPIRIT
$639,155.00 BAYLOR UNIVERSITY
$617,910.00 BOSTON UNIVERSITY
$593,741.00 TEXAS CHRISTIAN UNIVERSITY</p>
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<p>Most students need to make compromises, but most students will find at least a decent academic fit at more than a few colleges. If the student’s best fit college is an affordable safety, s/he may apply to just that one college, but if that is not the case, the student will need an application list with multiple schools with varying compromises.</p>
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<p>Parents should lay out the cost constraints before the student seriously searches for college for his/her application list (late junior year or summer between junior and senior year at the latest). The real heartbreak can occur in April if no such discussion occurs before applications are made and the student gets into several colleges that are all way too expensive.</p>
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<p>You left out whether the divorced father (a) has significant income, (b) is willing to contribute, and/or (c) will be cooperative with financial aid paperwork.</p>
<p>Harvard, etc. might be quite affordable if she gets in and the divorced father is not one of those wealthy-enough-to-disqualify-financial-aid-but-won’t-pay types and is otherwise cooperative.</p>
<p>Of course, no one should count on admission to Harvard, etc… But a 4.0 student, if she gets good test scores, should have plenty of large merit scholarship options (see the sticky threads at the top of the financial aid and scholarships forum). And the SUNYs are not awful or anything like that (although strength of programs at various campuses does depend on major).</p>
<p>It is unrealistic for you or her to expect her low income mother to be able to take on $80,000 in debt. But, with enough early warning, she can make an application list that will include affordable safeties and non-safeties suitable for her academic goals.</p>
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<p>Looks like Drexel gets a booby prize here; it has only about 15,000 undergraduates, versus about 38,000 at Texas and 19,000 at NYU (which has a reputation for poor financial aid).</p>
<p>But put it another way, Texas PLUS loans are about $88 per student, NYU PLUS loans are about $139 per student, and Drexel PLUS loans are about $428 per student. If we multiply by 11 to account for only 9% of students having PLUS loans taken out for them, we get $968 for Texas, $1,529 for NYU, and $4,708 for Drexel, per student who has PLUS loans taken out for them.</p>
<p>So it does not look like PLUS loans are that huge (certainly not $20,000 per year) even at the schools with a lot of PLUS loan value associated with them.</p>