<p>Wow, that seems like a lot of work. What do you take from it, collegehelp?</p>
<p>BTW, I can’t imagine your numbers for Denison are accurate, considering that according to USNWR 60.2 percent of students applied for need based financial aid, 51.8 percent received it and Denison covers an average of 96 percent of need. The COA for Denison is over $54,000.</p>
<p>Wow … that is pretty interesting … so much for the idea Ivies being so unlike other schools and the general US poplation and are full of rich kids … or for the idea state flagships have tons of students from much lower income families (The UCs do fit this description).</p>
<p>Another lengthy list of numbers… It’s been like this since the start of the thread. Like whack a mole.</p>
<p>I dispute collegehelp’s list. A few examples that discredit the list:</p>
<p>-73% of Denison students in the $0-30k range - with a COA above $50k, they cannot have enough financial aid to cover this many students
-34% of Vanderbilt students (and 7% of Princeton students and 32% of Yale students) in the $110k+ range - since their web sites show over half of students are full pay, I cannot believe that a significant number of families making less than $110k are full pay.</p>
<p>Denison tells us if Fafsa-based need is too high, they can’t meet it. That entry could be a typo-- but I don’t know what OP aims to prove with such a long list. (This sort of task seems to assume a lot of work = some important message. Or that a lot of detail proves one has some voice of authority. But is it relevant to the question of what a family can afford? ) I just don’t find these sorts of data to be proofs. Or valid input for a family that needs to consider cost.</p>
<p>I believe the data are restricted to students who received some form of Title IV federal aid. That might make a difference.</p>
<p>It took about a half hour. I downloaded a data set from IPEDS, imported into a spreadsheet, did calculations using formulas. I have similar data for another 260 schools.</p>
<p>Here is the description of this data from the IPEDS site for PRIVATE schools. There is a similar description for PUBLIC school data.
"Variable Description</p>
<p>Number of full-time, first-time degree/certificate-seeking undergraduates who received Title IV federal student aid -(INCOME LEVEL 0-30,000). Title IV federal student aid, includes federal grants or federal student loans. </p>
<p>Applicable to private not-for-profit and for-profit institutions with standard calendar systems (semester, quarter, trimester, 4-1-4) that report financial aid data for students enrolled for the FALL and received aid anytime during the full aid year. </p>
<p>Also, applicable to public or private institutions that measure courses primarily by contact hours, or offers primarily occupational programs measured in credit hours with calendar systems that are continuous or differs by programs. These institutions report financial aid data for students enrolled between the 12-month period (September 1 through August 31) and received aid anytime during the full aid year. </p>
<p>Title IV aid to students includes grant aid, work study aid, and loan aid. These include: Federal Pell Grant, Federal Supplemental Educational Opportunity Grant (FSEOG), Academic Competitiveness Grant (ACG), National Science and Mathematics Access to Retain Talent Grant (National SMART Grant), Teacher Education Assistance for College and Higher Education (TEACH) Grant, Federal Work-Study, Federal Perkins Loan, Subsidized Direct or FFEL Stafford Loan, and Unsubsidized Direct or FFEL Stafford Loan. </p>
<p>Full-time, first-time degree/certificate-seeking undergraduates - A student enrolled in a 4- or 5-year bachelor’s degree program, an associate’s degree program, or a vocational or technical program below the baccalaureate level, who has no prior postsecondary experience, and is enrolled for 12 or more semester credits, or 12 or more quarter credits, or 24 or more contact hours a week each term.</p>
<p>Variable Sources</p>
<p>IPEDS, Winter 2011-12, Student Financial Aid component"</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Considering that 41% of Princeton’s students are not financially needy (by Princeton’s generous definition of “needy”), it is hard to believe that only 7% come from families with income over $110,000 per year. Princeton also has only 12% of its students on Pell grants.</p>
<p>[Princeton</a> University Tuition, Costs and Financial Aid - CollegeData College Profile](<a href=“http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg03_tmpl.jhtml?schoolId=111]Princeton”>Princeton University Tuition | CollegeData)
[Economic</a> Diversity Among the Top 25 Ranked Schools | Rankings | Top National Universities | US News](<a href=“http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/economic-diversity-among-top-ranked-schools]Economic”>http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/economic-diversity-among-top-ranked-schools)</p>
<p>
The variables I see in the IPEDS database related to the income categories you listed are specifically for Title IV Federal Financial aid. Did you create derived variables by dividing the following?</p>
<p>Students who were awarded any Title IV Federal financial aid, by income level
Number in income level (0-30,000) (current year)
Number in income level (30,001-48,000) (current year)
Number in income level (48,001-75,000) (current year)
Number in income level (75,001-110,000) (current year)
Number in income level (110,001 or more) (current year)
Total number (current year)</p>
<p>If so, this calculation does not reflect the full class, only the portion who received Title IV financial aid, which may explain some odd results, such as nearly 8x as large a portion of the class being $110k+ at Caltech than at Princeton.</p>
<p>Sorry, but it may just be gobbledygook that misdirects. See it for what it is.</p>
<p>OP lays it out to lend significance, offers explanations that seem to give it weight. But I don’t see the significance of the exercise. How does a family USE this detail? X% at some school got some form of T4 aid and what? Better chance you kid can get in? Better chance they get the aid they need? Not overburdened by student loans? </p>
<p>All this affects decision-making how?</p>
<p>I think you are correct Data10. (The totals for each income category can be found in a different section of the IPEDS financial aid data. Look through the rest of the financial aid variables and you’ll find it.)</p>
<p>Here is the percentage of the 2011 freshman class on which the data in #889 are based. I divided the total on which the numbers in #889 were based by the total freshman class.</p>
<p>I think the percentage of students who receive Title IV aid might vary considerably from school to school.</p>
<p>Does this mean that the students NOT included in the figures from #889 are full pay?</p>
<p>39% California Institute of Technology
45% Harvey Mudd College
36% Massachusetts Institute of Technology
32% Washington University in St Louis
22% Harvard University
16% Princeton University
33% Vanderbilt University
37% Columbia University in the City of New York
46% Northwestern University
36% Rice University
26% Stanford University
37% University of Chicago
21% Yale University
50% Carnegie Mellon University
43% Duke University
42% University of Pennsylvania
35% Dartmouth College
29% Pomona College
40% Tufts University
45% University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
47% University of Notre Dame
32% Bowdoin College
48% Carleton College
46% Cornell University
42% Swarthmore College
45% Amherst College
40% Brown University
64% Case Western Reserve University
32% Claremont McKenna College
48% Emory University
26% Georgia Institute of Technology-Main Campus
34% Haverford College
47% Johns Hopkins University
68% Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute
50% Wesleyan University
23% Cooper Union for the Advancement of Science and Art
39% Georgetown University
62% Grinnell College
47% Hamilton College
33% Middlebury College
53% Northeastern University
31% University of California-Berkeley
31% University of Michigan-Ann Arbor
61% University of Southern California
55% Vassar College
34% Washington and Lee University
44% Williams College
47% Boston College
24% Colgate University
31% Davidson College
55% Macalester College
71% Polytechnic Institute of New York University
77% Stevens Institute of Technology
56% University of Rochester
25% University of Virginia-Main Campus
41% Wellesley College
32% Colby College
35% Colorado School of Mines
53% Lehigh University
54% New York University
40% Reed College
38% University of Miami
45% Barnard College
57% Brandeis University
42% Bucknell University
21% College of William and Mary
40% Oberlin College
35% Scripps College
49% SUNY at Binghamton
44% Tulane University of Louisiana
44% University of Minnesota-Twin Cities
41% University of Richmond
33% University of Wisconsin-Madison
49% Boston University
32% Colorado College
47% George Washington University
48% Gettysburg College
61% Illinois Institute of Technology
47% Kenyon College
51% Lafayette College
50% Missouri University of Science and Technology
45% Ohio State University-Main Campus
47% University of California-Los Angeles
30% University of Maryland-College Park
37% University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
52% Villanova University
57% Wheaton College
67% Whitman College
59% Denison University
49% Dickinson College
76% Kettering University
51% Occidental College
36% Pitzer College
44% Santa Clara University
40% Southern Methodist University
52% Stony Brook University
45% SUNY College at Geneseo
46% The University of Texas at Dallas
30% Trinity College
43% University of Pittsburgh-Pittsburgh Campus</p>
<p>
Note that Title IV aid includes federal loans. This relates to why HYP and other colleges that favor grant aid instead of loan aid fall at the bottom of the Title IV percentage. I’d expect the bulk of the percentage comes from loans and federal grants. Federal grants are correlated well with low incomes, such as Pell Grants, but loans have more to do with how with the quality of the grant based aid at the college. Earlier I mentioned Caltech had almost 8x the percentage in $110k as Princeton. This relates to only 3% of Princeton students taking federal loans, compared to 27% at Caltech. Students in the $110k+ range are far more likely to take a federal loan at Caltech than at Princeton.</p>
<p>The percentage not included are by no means full pay. Many receive quality financial aid from the college, without receiving federal grants or loans.</p>
<p>I don’t think Parent PLUS Loans are Title IV so some of the families not included in #889 may be taking these kinds of loans or taking private loans.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Each year there are numerous threads questioning if a student from a lower income group will fit in at an Ivy or it’s cohorts … and others talking about state schools being much more egalitarian. Having data to verify or dispel these theories can lead to better informed decisions.</p>
<p>PS - that thought requires high quality data … the Title IV limitation on the data set certainly creates some issues with the data as presented … if we could see the data for all students it might help some families answer questions about some of the schools in which their student is interested.</p>
<p>Each year there are numerous threads questioning if a student from a lower income group will fit in at an Ivy or it’s cohorts "</p>
<p>But that’s predicated on the assumption that full pay students are somehow “different” human beings, and that they set the tone within which one has to “fit.” Full pay students are not some caricacature of Richie Rich. They are, you know, people and like any other group of people, most are good and then there are a few jerks. Just like kids on FA. </p>
<p>And if one’s response to full pay kids is “I better not go, I don’t know how I’ll fit in” then wth are you doing trying to better your life and employment prospects if not to try to get into a higher socioeconomic class in the first place?? Makes no sense.</p>
<p>The percentage of students receiving Pell grants might also be indicative of how economically egalitarian a school is and it would be based on all undergrads, not just those receiving Title IV aid:</p>
<p>11 California Institute of Technology
13 Harvey Mudd College
17 Massachusetts Institute of Technology
6 Washington University in St Louis
18 Harvard University
12 Princeton University
14 Vanderbilt University
16 Columbia University in the City of New York
14 Northwestern University
17 Rice University
16 Stanford University
11 University of Chicago
12 Yale University
15 Carnegie Mellon University
14 Duke University
17 University of Pennsylvania
13 Dartmouth College
16 Pomona College
11 Tufts University
21 University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
12 University of Notre Dame
12 Bowdoin College
14 Carleton College
17 Cornell University
17 Swarthmore College
20 Amherst College
15 Brown University
18 Case Western Reserve University
10 Claremont McKenna College
21 Emory University
17 Georgia Institute of Technology-Main Campus
14 Haverford College
13 Johns Hopkins University
16 Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute
21 Wesleyan University
19 Cooper Union for the Advancement of Science and Art
16 Georgetown University
25 Grinnell College
13 Hamilton College
10 Middlebury College
13 Northeastern University
24 University of California-Berkeley
16 University of Michigan-Ann Arbor
20 University of Southern California
23 Vassar College
11 Washington and Lee University
19 Williams College
12 Boston College
11 Colgate University
12 Davidson College
18 Macalester College
45 Polytechnic Institute of New York University
22 Stevens Institute of Technology
19 University of Rochester
12 University of Virginia-Main Campus
17 Wellesley College
11 Colby College
16 Colorado School of Mines
14 Lehigh University
23 New York University
16 Reed College
15 University of Miami
20 Barnard College
23 Brandeis University
9 Bucknell University
9 College of William and Mary
9 Oberlin College
11 Scripps College
25 SUNY at Binghamton
11 Tulane University of Louisiana
22 University of Minnesota-Twin Cities
15 University of Richmond
16 University of Wisconsin-Madison
13 Boston University
10 Colorado College
12 George Washington University
12 Gettysburg College
38 Illinois Institute of Technology
7 Kenyon College
13 Lafayette College
27 Missouri University of Science and Technology
21 Ohio State University-Main Campus
32 University of California-Los Angeles
15 University of Maryland-College Park
20 University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
13 Villanova University
20 Wheaton College
10 Whitman College
22 Denison University
10 Dickinson College
27 Kettering University
20 Occidental College
10 Pitzer College
13 Santa Clara University
15 Southern Methodist University
36 Stony Brook University
16 SUNY College at Geneseo
29 The University of Texas at Dallas
10 Trinity College
16 University of Pittsburgh-Pittsburgh Campus</p>
<p>My questions were more about the value of the data presented. Average fin aid, average net price, % of kids on aid, even what % of need was met, etc, doesn’t offer a family enough to make their own best decisions. What aid will that family get? And, a good match certainly includes affordability- but also more than just that. I see we now have another list.</p>
<p>As Pizzagirl has already pointed out, unless you know what percentages of applicants come from families eligible for Pell grants the above says nothing about how “economically egalitarian” each school is.</p>
<p>Sue22, I think the % Pell grant of the enrolled undergrads has meaning by itself. It shows roughly the SES mix you will experience among your fellow students if you attend. Controlling for the number of applicants in each income category would tell you if there is bias in admissions ONLY if you also control for their academic records. Perhaps low-income applicants are also less qualified academically than high-income students, or vice versa, thus leading to different admit rates. I think the percent Pell grants of enrollees is more telling about the likelihood of “fit”.</p>
<p>I suspect that collegehelp’s point with post #889 was supposed to be that a large number of students at those schools came from families with incomes similar to or less than his cousin’s family’s income, since he wrote
</p>
<p>I don’t think the argument was going to be economic egalitarianism, nor preference for/discrimination against students from families with moderate incomes.</p>
<p>I think the argument was going to be: Look, a high fraction of the students at these schools come from families that make no more than my cousin’s family! So <em>now</em> why won’t those chintzy people take out an $80,000 loan (per child) in the spirit of generosity and loving their children!</p>
<p>Unfortunately for this argument, the list just gave percentages of those receiving Title IV aid. The supposed percentages looked patently ridiculous to anyone who knows much at all about the student bodies at those schools. </p>
<p>I think that it is not difficult to locate on the web the fraction of Harvard’s class that comes from families in each quintile of income–or at least, the top and bottom quintiles. And Harvard has very generous financial aid policies.</p>
<p>I am not sure about some of the “elite” LAC’s on collegehelp’s list of desirable schools. I doubt that they have endowments that permit the same financial aid policies as Harvard, and suspect that they are skewed toward higher incomes, relative to the Harvard group–although Harvard may have more of the super-rich.</p>
<p>With regard to Pizzagirl’s comment that the schools aren’t populated by Richie Rich types, I think that is true. However, I think that a student who comes from the higher income ranges is unlikely to have a realistic understanding of the limitations faced by a median-income family. This doesn’t come out through flaunting of wealth, but through automatic assumptions that are not reality-based.</p>
<p>This seems like a good time to mention that I thought that my fiance’s family was “rich” because everything in the bathroom was color-coordinated.</p>
<p>Although 110K is well above the median US income, the percentage of 110K+ students doesn’t really tell you much about the number of upper-crusters you’ll meet at a school. That 110K+ earner could be a plumber with a 112K income or a Walton receiving an annual 110 million in Walmart income.</p>