<p>If you want to do an averge, why don’t you do average for different ranking agencies? It is the best way to get rid of bias of any particular agency ranking.</p>
<p>Wall Street, Forbes, QS, Shanghai Jiaotong, placement into PhD programs, NRC to see where Penn stands, nd compare it to US News ranking to see how much overrated Penn is by US News.</p>
<p>Good luck, Penn.</p>
<p>Y7ongjun-- why don’t you just come out and explain why you hate Penn?</p>
<p>FWIW, isn’t the Shanghai Jiaotong the ranking which just copied and pasted another set? Forbes is an utter joke and has been discussed as such in great detail on this forum. Your “placement” for PhD programs analysis has been limited to one institution and one field. You have made statements that are in direct contrast to the evidence available in the NRC rankings so clearly you don’t care about them much.</p>
<p>So what’s left?</p>
<p>You don’t like Penn and joined this forum for the expressed purpose of ■■■■■■■■ about Penn. Is it overranked? I think almost everyone agrees it’s slightly overranked. Does it matter? Not really. Have you made a single point that was unique or created constructive discourse? Not that I’ve seen.</p>
<p>WSJ only has one ranking out. As I said, there isn’t a whole lot separating Penn from the schools right bellow it and the schools right above it. </p>
<p>QS has large fluctuations from year to year (not just Penn, but other schools like UCL, and completely lacks stability for schools not called Harvard, so it is tough to draw conclusions from it.
Let’s do some average rankings for
Penn 20.75 with huge upward swing from 32 to 11
Stanford 11.75 with downward momentum from 5 to 17
UCL 17.25 with more similar upward movement to Penn from 28 to 7
Duke 12.5 with three straight years at 13
Cornell 16
Hopkins 19.5 moved up with Penn and UCL, but less movement
Columbia 13.25 moved from 20 to 10.</p>
<p>It looks like city schools were ranked low in 2005 and have made up ground with Columbia seeing a jump in 2006 and Penn, UCL, and Hopkins jumping up in 2007. Cornell and Duke have been stable, and Stanford did something to anger the ranking because it has been steadily falling.</p>
<p>For placement into PhD programs, show me numbers where Penn doesn’t place well into top PhD programs outside of Catech Physics. Penn students are more preprofessional so it is not a school that will churn out future PhDs like Caltech or Reed. However, Penn is only bad at creating future PhDs if the students who go down that path if it cannot set its students up to get into top programs. Outside of Caltech Physics (though Penn sends students to other Caltech programs) you have shown nothing.</p>
<p>For NRC Penn has an average ranking of 16.4. That is for the 35 departments where it is ranked. Penn doesn’t have Industrial Engineering, Geography, Civil Engineering, or Aerospace Engineering. Penn is not ranked for Astrophysics/Astronomy. Either Penn is 40th or worse in it, or NRC didn’t take fully into account that Penn’s program is housed in the Physics department. In either case, Physics at Penn is 17. If you take out the 75th place Geoscience Department, Penn averages a ranking of 14.67 for 34 departments, almost making us a solid top 15 school.</p>
<p>I agree that the 4th place US News is a bit of an overrank. However, I don’t see how it’s usual spot at 6 or 7 is way out of the question.</p>
<p>I am glad that you mentioned NRC ranking.</p>
<p>How many of Penn’s programs are ranked top 10, what perecentage of Penn’s program are in top 10%? Here is Penn’s performance according to NRC. Sorry, Penn was #14, not #4. </p>
<p>By contrast, MIT was #1, Stanford and Caltech were 5 and 6, much higher than Penn. Berkeley, Chicago, Cornell, and Columbia all beat Penn, along with public universities Michigan, UCSD, UCLA.</p>
<p>Top 30 universities by average of nonzero scores </p>
<p>ranking 1995 University 1995 average score </p>
<p>1 MIT 8.70
2 Berkeley 8.50
3 Harvard 8.20
4 Princeton 8.03
5 Caltech 8.00
6 Stanford 7.95
7 UChicago 7.73
8 Yale 7.60
9 Cornell 7.47
10 UCSD 7.34
11 Columbia 7.32
12 Michigan 7.24
13 UCLA 7.19
14 Penn 7.09
15 Wisconsin 6.95
16 UTexas 6.78
17 UWashington 6.70
17 Illinois 6.70
19 Northwestern 6.63
20 Duke 6.61
20 Johns Hopkins 6.61
22 Carnegie Mellon 6.53
23 Minnesota 6.41
24 North Carolina 6.31
25 Brown 6.31
26 UC Irvine 6.22
27 NYU 6.20
28 Virginia 6.16
29 Purdue 6.12
30 Arizona 6.00</p>
<p>Didn’t I show you Penn’s bad performance with Harvard and CalTech physics?</p>
<p>Do you want me to show you Penn’s performance in math, political science, chemistry, biology, computer science, or engineering? Penn’s performnce is even worse. Sorry for being so frank.</p>
<p>Y7ongjun- you never answer the question everyone is asking: why do you hate penn so much?</p>
<p>Look, I’m sorry you were rejected. it sucks. but can’t you get over it and get a life? Filling these boards up with this **** is just stupid. Common man.</p>
<p>Penn probably advanced into the rankings due to having a prestigious business school at a time when undergrad b-school is becoming a more popular option.</p>
<p>Y7, are you that dense?
You mentioned NRC first
I also said that Penn isn’t the 4th best school in the country
I did say that Penn is a solid top 15 school
And your ranking puts Penn at 14.
In your ranking Penn also beats out Duke, Northwestern, Hopkins, and Brown.
UCSD also beats Columbia. In fact, less than .25 separate Columbia and Penn. I don’t know how significant you think that is, but to me, it isn’t too much.</p>
<p>Here’s another thing:
Penn has 15 top 10 programs (art history, english, french, linguistics, music, religion, spanish, neuroscience, pharmacology, physiology, bme, materials engineering, antrho, econ, and psych)
Columbia has 13 top 10 programs (art history, classics, comp lit, english, french, spanish, neuro, physiology, chem, geoscience, math, oceanography, history)</p>
<p>
Wharton has always been the best undergraduate business school. That shouldn’t change Penn’s PA score too much. It will attract more applicants to lower the acceptance rate, but it is only one school out of 4 at Penn, so it can’t lower it too much. Penn’s largest school, CAS, has an acceptance rate similar to Penn’s overall acceptance rate, so Wharton doesn’t drag it down too much, if at all. I can’t see how Wharton affects Penn’s other numbers in US News either considering that it makes up 22% of the graduating class. Wharton might provide a slight boost that puts Penn strongly at #7 right bellow HYPSM. It isn’t enough to carry it over Columbia, Chicago, Dartmouth and Duke consistently every year since 1998.</p>
<p>
Conveniently, you ignored the other overall NRC ranking.</p>
<p>1 Stanford
2 Berkeley
3 Michigan
4 Cornell
5 Wisconsin
6 UCLA
7 UT Austin
8 Columbia
9 Penn
9 UIUC
9 Washington
12 Harvard
13 Minnesota
14 Princeton
15 Chicago
16 Yale</p>
<p>When you average the two lists, you get this:</p>
<p>1 Berkeley
2 Stanford
3 Cornell
4 Harvard
4 Michigan
6 Princeton<br>
7 Columbia
7 UCLA
9 Wisconsin
10 Chicago
11 Penn </p>
<p>Take out the publics, and you get Penn in the top 7…exactly where I said it should be.</p>
<p>^ Indeed, in the NRC rankings, Penn had 15 programs ranked in the TOP 10, and another 10 programs ranked in the TOP 20.</p>
<p>Also, Penn was one of the TOP 10 universities in terms of the number of programs ranked in the top 10 in the NRC rankings.</p>
<p>Additionally, The Center for Measuring University Performance (completely unaffiliated with Penn) has for several years consistently ranked Penn among the top 5 or so research universities in the country, based on a variety of objective factors:</p>
<p><a href=“http://mup.asu.edu/research2008.pdf[/url]”>http://mup.asu.edu/research2008.pdf</a> (see pages 8-9 of the latest report)</p>
<p>Add to that the fact that among all universities in the US, Penn is second only to Johns Hopkins in terms of the amount of research funding it receives from the National Institutes of Health.</p>
<p>Anyone who refuses to acknowledge that Penn is one of the top 10 or so research universities in the country is, quite frankly, seriously deluded.</p>
<p>
By this I meant that if Penn was legit bellow those 4 schools, Wharton wouldn’t be enough to push it over them 13 years in a row. It might be enough to put Penn at #7 if Penn is as strong as those 4 schools.</p>
<p>IBClass:</p>
<p>That other ranking gives a 0 to every non-ranked program (that is, for each program that does not exist in the given university). This means that Chicago is low due to its lack of engineering programs and MIT is extremely low due to its lack of humanities and social science programs. It’s just not a good ranking to use. Although I don’t agree with Y7ongjun’s extremist tone, I do think the list he used is the correct one. Otherwise, having a whole lot of mediocre programs is better than having a few (but not too few) extremely good ones.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>You KNOW you have a problem when Captain Brunonian is asking you why you hate Penn ;)</p>
<p>Seriously, Y7. Calm down, get help, and try not to be too jealous of the fact that we go to Penn and you don’t.</p>
<p>
And yet, Berkeley is at 21, Michigan is out of the top 25.
and Penn at 4?<br>
Did I get my facts straight? ;-)</p>
<p>IMO, Duke > Penn. Duke’s consistent. Penn is gaming the system. </p>
<p>For the record, I wasn’t rejected.</p>
<p>^and why is Duke better than Penn aside from your personal biases? Sure, Duke is significantly better at certain things (basketball, um actually thats all that comes to mind) but in most areas the schools are basically equal or one edges out the other. Nothing to say without a doubt that Duke > Penn or Penn > Duke.</p>
<p>
Actually, to support that allegation, you’ve offered no facts at all.</p>
<p>Indeed, you’ve IGNORED the facts.</p>
<p>I guess we’re all entitled to some occasional ignorant bliss. ;)</p>
<p>I can’t believe this conversation is still going on. Penn is a world class university; certainly one of the top 15 universities in the US and a very strong contender for top 10 honors. It is on par with schools like Brown, Cal, Chicago, Columbia, Cornell, Duke etc… And this is not a recent phenomena. Penn is America’s “first university”. It has been at the forefront of cutting edge academics for over a century. I agree that ranking it at #4 is lofty, but then again, so is ranking Caltech at #4. Penn should be ranked between #6 and #17 and there is no difference between schools ranked in that range.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Newsflash, maybe the Penn students don’t want to <em>go</em> to CalTech’s physics PhD program? The relevant measure isn’t how many go there, it’s in what % of those who wanted to go there were able to. I recognize, of course, the poster is from a culture where everyone is supposed to march in lockstep towards The Very Best Or Else.</p>
<p>I know Penn students do not want to go to CalTech, Harvard, Yale, MIT, Stanford, Chicago, Berkeley, Princeton or Columbia. They like to remain at Penn because they think Penn is better school than above and and better fit for them.</p>