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<p>If you replaced Asians with any other minority in your statement, these statements would be completely unacceptable.</p>
<p><a href=“https://www.aamc.org/download/321508/data/2012factstable24.pdf[/url]”>https://www.aamc.org/download/321508/data/2012factstable24.pdf</a></p>
<p>If you look at this chart showing the acceptance rate to med school by GPA and MCAT scores, for almost every GPA, the higher the MCATs, the higher the likelihood of admission, and for practically every MCAT score, the higher the GPA, the higher the admission rate. You wouldn’t get this level of correlation if other credentials are as significant. So there certainly are areas in the US education system where scores are one of the most important measures, and if a student is interested in fields such as these, focusing on test scores makes more sense than more general credentials.</p>
<p>As to the other issue of stereotyping Asians this little essay on criticizing comp sci researchers probably has some similarities:
<a href=“https://www.cs.purdue.edu/homes/comer/essay.criticize.html[/url]”>https://www.cs.purdue.edu/homes/comer/essay.criticize.html</a>
"How To Avoid Having An Insult Backfire On You
A misplaced insult can backfire, turning into an embarrassment for the attacker and a victory for the intended attackee. To avoid such occurrences, remember the following: </p>
<p>Never attempt to attack theoretical work as not considering constants, as unrelated to real computer systems, or as requiring too much sophisticated mathematics. (The intended victim is likely to smile and thank you for the flattery.) "</p>
<p>Many of us are also likely to smile and thank you if when you start painting us as being obsessed with trying for perfect scores and admission to elite colleges.</p>
<p>The high emphasis on scores or GPAs as indicators of one’s academic bona-fides aren’t limited to Asian-Americans. </p>
<p>Knew plenty of other immigrants and ethnic groups in the NYC area for whom such indicators of academic performance was paramount. It’s especially strong among recent immigrants and first generation or two Americans. </p>
<p>In fact, most of those immigrant/ethnic groups placed greater emphasis on scores and GPAs partially to counteract what they perceived as an “anti-intellectual climate” or in the words of one parent from such a group, a “a society where being dumb and dumber is highly prized”*. </p>
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<li>At the time this was uttered, Beavis & Butthead was a highly popular TV show and probably still timely considering the content of many recent reality TV shows and their popularity.</li>
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<p>And why would that be completely unacceptable … if it is true?<br>
Try this for an exercise.</p>
<p>Please note that none of my comments are intimating to be applying to “all Hispanics.” I deliberately mention the criticisms of the actions described in the sterotypes. Obviously, not “all Hispanics” are engaged in the behavior some of us find reprehensible.</p>
<p>How is that remotely unacceptable? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever. It is mere arguing for the sake of arguing.</p>
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<p>So what! Do you want to demonstrate that there is some company in the misery? Being true for “others” does not make it more palatable in any sense. </p>
<p>Pfft!</p>
<p>“Asians” aren’t a minority. Chinese are. Indians are. Mongolians are. Pakistans are. Tibetans are. Sri Lankans are. Indonesians are. Koreans are. Tuvans are. Afghanis are. Burmese are. Vietnamese are. Hmong are. Mien are. Lao are. Singaporeans are. </p>
<p>I doubt that many of them have much in common with each other.</p>
<p>None of this is about race–it’s about culture. The attitude that some of us question is a cultural norm that we have observed. It appears to be strongest among relatively recent Chinese immigrants, but it also observable in some other groups, and sometimes in just random people. I think it may be more prevalent in some geographical communities than others, which may explain why it’s so obvious to some of us and why others resist it.</p>
<p>But I have to note, ccdaddio, that you’re not really denying the existence of the stereotypical attitude–rather, you’re defending it as a reasonable choice.</p>
<p>The question of this thread was fully explored and answered by the distiguished CCers. But some subtle issue, closely related to the original question, remains to be explored further.
Is college education the screening tool or the vehicle for personal development?
My hypothesis is as follows. Most American college students study very hard, and they understand that what they study are very useful ingredients for the life fulfilment and career building. But some East Asian students study very hard only to show his or her “betterness” than others. For them purpose of study is not learning and practicing essestials of education but proving high rankings only. For them grade ‘A’ and graduation from prestigious instituion are, they believe, effective indicators screening them.
Too critical?</p>
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<p>Great clarification, Hunt. </p>
<p>I don’t question the cultural norms that say in some societies, 1) admission to college is primarily predicated upon grades/scores and nothing else, and 2) where you go to college has a tremendously strong impact on the trajectory of your life – certain colleges will give you the golden ticket and others, why bother. Those are the cultural norms in those countries. What I question is why it <em>just never occurs</em> to some people that when they move to a new country, there may be new cultural norms in effect to consider. They may or may not like them, they may believe the way the old country did it is better … that’s fine, they’re entitled to that. But to behave as though those cultural norms are true in the <em>new country</em> is what I don’t understand. To behave as though entry to HYPSM can be gained just by gutting it out and studying that much harder isn’t an appropriate cultural response to the realities of HYPSM. To behave as though entry to HYPSM is a golden ticket for life and any place else is a horrendous failure dooming one to flipping burgers isn’t an appropriate cultural response to the realities of higher education in America. Just like to behave as though entry to China’s or India’s top universities could be had through starting charities and helping little old ladies cross the street isn’t an appropriate cultural response to the realities of how Chinese and Indian culture work. I question the lack of flexibility in thinking and the lack of willingness to <em>acknowledge</em> a different reality.</p>
<p>PG, it is simple. There are few reasons to abandon the practices when they deliver the goods. And it HAS worked extremely well for decades as the schools have rewarded the students with admissions that far exceed their population representation. The model minority has reaped tremendous returns on their excessive focus on academics and resume building. And probably at the expense of the BWRK who held the past and romantic view that colleges loved the well rounded kids for … way too long. </p>
<p>The biggest news is mostly when the trick is exposed and the return starts to erode. Hence the callous allegations of discrimination that show their ugly heads every year. </p>
<p>Trophy hunters, serial applicants, prestige whores will remain part of the landscape. And they could not care less about what others think. They are unrepentant.</p>
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<p>This is actually an indication of an interesting cultural difference. The poster is from Korea, and I assume that he or she was meaning to be respectful to the posters on CC by calling us distinguished and flattering us. To me, as an American, with American norms and values, it comes across as condescending, patronizing, or “gimme a break - we aren’t ‘distinguished,’ we’re a bunch of folks commenting on a message board.” I would be remiss if I were to move to Korea not to understand what such language might mean there, and someone living here would be remiss not to learn that such language over here is often seen as patronizing.</p>
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<p>That is an interesting observation. I had not thought of that. Self-improvement vs. raw competition. Which is better for the individual and which is better for our society?</p>
<p>Well, the hidden hand of capitalist meritocracy supposedly takes advantage of that. It doesn’t matter WHY they are successful - their success helps everyone. Or so it is believed.</p>
<p>Mini, it all depends on your definition of success and meritocracy. Grade grubbing via excessive focus and making a mockery of the grading system via artificial devices, including a cultural acceptance of organized cheating, does not help anyone. Efforts and hard work deserve to be rewarded, but the extent of the outside assistance goes beyond the acceptable. </p>
<p>When it gets to grades and testing, the playing field is far from level. Getting the results is more important than obtaining them with a modicum of integrity. It is about winning at all cost. </p>
<p>And, no, that does NOT benefit everyone.</p>
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<p>This part may be debatable considering some old-school Professors I’ve known/know of who taught since the 50’s and '60s have complained about the decline in level of student effort, time, and genuine interest/engagement with academics since they’ve started their academic careers. </p>
<p>This issue has been covered by the following articles:</p>
<p>[Is</a> college too easy? As study time falls, debate rises - The Washington Post](<a href=“http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/is-college-too-easy-as-study-time-falls-debate-rises/2012/05/21/gIQAp7uUgU_story.html]Is”>http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/is-college-too-easy-as-study-time-falls-debate-rises/2012/05/21/gIQAp7uUgU_story.html)</p>
<p>[Are</a> Undergraduates Actually Learning Anything? - Commentary - The Chronicle of Higher Education](<a href=“http://chronicle.com/article/Are-Undergraduates-Actually/125979/]Are”>http://chronicle.com/article/Are-Undergraduates-Actually/125979/)</p>
<p>[The</a> decline of studying - Canada - Macleans.ca](<a href=“http://www2.macleans.ca/2010/09/05/the-decline-of-studying/]The”>http://www2.macleans.ca/2010/09/05/the-decline-of-studying/)</p>
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<p>* Please,* cobrat, can you give your <em>own</em> opinions instead of constantly telling us what other people (supposedly) have told you? Do <em>you</em> agree with the quote that “Most Amer college students study very hard and understand that what they study are useful ingredients for life fulfillment and career building”? Not <em>do your professors</em> or <em>friends</em> or <em>cousins</em> or "college classmates* or <em>former supervisors</em> or <em>high school classmates</em> think. YOU.</p>
<p>It occurs to me that making high school, college, and standardized tests harder might backfire on those students who achieve by studying day and night. They can’t study any more than they do already–are they really going to be the ones who would benefit from tougher testing? I don’t think so–it will be the kids who already do well without studying all that much.</p>
<p>PG,</p>
<p>I made my post because the following post:</p>
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<p>is not necessarily uncontested, especially among some key actors within the American higher education community. </p>
<p>There’s a bit of a debate going on about that within the last few decades.</p>
<p>Professors always think the students of today don’t work as hard as those of the past. If they were really correct, students of today wouldn’t even be able to speak in full sentences.</p>
<p>And while I think work ethic is really important, I think some parents with the intense attitude we’re talking about here are asking for work from their kids that has diminishing returns, as compared with other ways they could be spending their time. The kid who has to spend two hours a day practicing the violin, but who is still only a middling player is, in my opinion, wasting about 90 minutes a day on that activity. Meanwhile, some other kid is earning a Gold Award from the Girl Scouts or something like that.</p>
<p>Yes, cobrat. So … what is YOUR opinion? Not anyone else’s. </p>
<p>I would add that there’s a bit of cultural stereotype behind the notion that the answer to a question is to trot out what someone else thinks rather than give one’s own opinion.</p>