<p>ok first of all, andrew, what you just dismissed as “the most ridiculous suggestion you’ve ever heard” is more common than you think. ever seen a student that doesn’t go to class, yet still makes A’s? they don’t master the material before the class starts. they read the book, think about it, study it, and understand it. it’s not exactly unheard of.</p>
<p>and secondly, if you think you need to take a college level philosophy class to discuss it, then i’m sorry, my friend, but i would say you are the misguided one. you could talk about it with an interested friend, someone else who read the book, find an online forum, or even ask a professor. most of them will gladly discuss your questions regardless of whether or not you enroll in their class. if that fails, then you could probably find a scholar to e-mail as they, too, will gladly answer your questions. and no, that is not “taking advantage of the faculty” as i had meant it in my previous post. you don’t even have to go to a college to ask professors questions, much less pay tuition.</p>
<p>The only majors that fit your description of “worthwhile” would be lab sciences. Anything else, you can learn in textbooks at home. Stop being so asinine.</p>
<p>I really envy people who don’t have to worry about getting a job following graduation. If I only had to worry about personal enrichment, I’d major in about four obscure languages… well, actually, I probably wouldn’t be in school… I’d probably spend my 40K abroad… or maybe doing that service learning… Lots of possibilities.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, I know the cost of living and my circumstances wouldn’t support that luxury. Boo to being poor and frugal.</p>
<p>This thread is black and white; either you agree or disagree. </p>
<p>By the way, I’m double majoring in Sociology and Philosophy. My parents and friends plus their parents think I’m going to get nowhere. I just smile and say, “We shall see.”</p>
<p>a classic 3-year old “you’re stupid” retort</p>
<p>for next time: actually try and explain why i should consider philosophy a “worthwhile” major instead of reverting to juvenile comebacks. </p>
<p>and i seriously hope you were joking about lab sciences being the only college majors requiring in-class instruction. im not even gonna bother arguing that, as you jumped to a completely unsupported conclusion.</p>
<p>oh and one more thing, i am not saying philosophy isn’t worthwhile. i never even used the term so you shouldn’t have quoted it. </p>
<p>make no mistake about it, i do think the study of philosophy is worthwhile. im just saying majoring in the subject is an inefficient use of a college tuition given the nature of the material and its accessibility.</p>
<p>I don’t know about that el duque. I’m not an expert by any measure, but I would think understanding the depth of the material could only be truly facilitated by learned discussion, not by simply reading the great works.</p>
<p>Only someone who could never reach the level of philosopher would equate philosophy as being a single topic that can be researched independent of combined readings and discussions amongst others. Studying philosophy is not only knowing what others say about life, but questioning every aspect of life oneself. Taking others views and picking them apart and leaving only the truths behind. Philosophy is not only the ideas of Plato, Kant, Descartes, and other more modern philosophers such as Sartre and Pirsig, but becoming the ultimate holder of all truths in sciences, maths, and religions. </p>
<p>While others go to school merely to find a degree in a subject that might intrigue them, philosophers go to school for knowledge alone. It is not always about finding a decent job (while there are plenty for philosophy majors due to their ability to think at a different level than all other majors) but to obtain, if you will, ‘the knowledge of the gods.’</p>
<p>But, what do I know, I’m just an English major…</p>
<p>it is implied, within the context of this thread, that when i use the term “philosophy” it is meant to describe the range of subjects studied by a philosophy major in an undergraduate institution (i.e. ethics, metaphysics, logic, existentialism, etc.), not a single topic.</p>
<p>look, you guys can beat around the bush or continue to bring up irrelevant points all you want, but until someone addresses the issue at hand (what you get out of a college philosophy class that you can’t get out of a book and one-on-one discussion with pretty much anyone you choose), I stand by my belief that philosophy majors are irrational consumers, people with nothing better to do with their money and are deservedly laughed at.</p>
<p>if you’re willing to spend so much time researching, speaking to other people about it, and doing outside work, then why not just major in it if that’s your interest. it’s fine you want to major in philosophy, but i know it would be tough to find a job with it just because it’s so broad and maybe even too complex to be able to sum up with just a few jobs… which is why it’s best for people who want to go to grad school. people probably laugh at you because they don’t really know what philosophy is… </p>
<p>el duque, i know where you’re coming from when you say why major in something if you can do it yourself for free. i used to think like this and so i refused to major in any languages because i thought i could learn it on my own. and so this might be the same of English majors. Why major in English if you could check out literature books on your own, discuss it on your own with friends and professors, and even write your own essays. It’s because… realistically speaking, if you’re not required to do it, many people won’t. and doing it on your own is not the same as being in an academic environment. I’ve taken business/math/science courses and realized that if a person is naturally good at these things, they can probably do it themselves, but society only requires them to get a degree. but if they’re not good enough, and constantly require help from instructors, then it’s probably not for them. besides, there are far less discussion in the more practical courses, and the teachers usually lecture from the books, so why can’t you also do that on your own. but i guess people want to do those courses because “it looks good”. but i don’t know, if you’re not majoring in business or engineering, pretty much any major is the same, so why not do something you actually like and wouldn’t mind doing things on your own.</p>
<p>Dear el duque:<br>
I apologize for not making my implications clear to you. To major in philosophy is to hope to become a philosopher. While I’m sure many people can learn from reading or discussions with the occasional intellect; the only way to truly study philosophy is to immerse yourself amongst others striving to reach the same goals as your own. I must agree with 4321234 in that if you’re going to immerse yourself, why not spend your college tuition money on something you love. Why does an education need to be just about making money in the future. Sure, it helps, but Philosophy majors have just as many, if not more, opportunities as any other major. I realize that you didn’t understand that by ‘single topic’ I was referring to the basic resources of philosophy readily available to the public. I am well aware of the different discussions made available under the title philosophy. My point was that it is not something that can JUST be read or discussed, but must be immersed within. The truths studied from others are just their truths, but a philosopher must find his own truths whether they be found from previous texts or not. Philosophy is an ongoing process as much as science is. </p>
<p>Again, I apologize for not making myself clear to you in my first post. And out of curiosity, what is an ‘acceptable’ major in your opinion? I ended with ‘just an English major’ last time because I figured I would be lumped into the same category of ‘uselessness.’</p>
<p>i actually disagree that philosophy is an ongoing process. i also don’t view a philosopher as a position or “level” as you seem to. i think a philosopher is a state of mind, one who examines the true nature of anything and everything. i think a 2-year old could qualify as a philosopher, as they explore and question their environment in much the same way i would expect a mature philosopher to. </p>
<p>i don’t think one can “hope to become” a philosopher by immersion or any other means. i think one either is or is not a philosopher before they even pick up a textbook. i think a true philosopher will explore and find his answers whether or not he shows up to a lecture 3 days a week. and finally i think a true philosopher will one day realize that he can sit in a classroom his entire life, listen to thousands of theories and ideas from countless perspectives, but that the only way to ever truly understand the universe is to create and test a theory himself, doing so over and over again until he finally arrives at a theory that passes all tests, simultaneously becoming your so-called ultimate holder of truths (something only a philosopher would ever think possible).</p>
<p>The role of the instructor, then, becomes quite obsolete in this endeavor. I feel a college tuition is best put to use when the services of an instructor are needed, at least on some level.</p>
<p>I know thinking is fun. I’m taking AP French senior year and I really don’t even want credit for it- I just think it’s enjoyable to learn the French language.
So, what do you see yourself doing after you’ve acquired your philosophy degrees? Not with the degrees, if you don’t like that, but after you’ve gone through four years of college.</p>
<p>Law. I think Philosophy and law are very closely related to the extent that I will enjoy them both. I like to think and challenge myself in this manner.</p>
<p>sure one could do that, if all philosophy was was shooting the s***. But it’s not. You cannot learn how to engage in a critical discussion by talking about it with “anyone you choose.” I believe the phrase someone else used was “learned discussion,” and bouncing half-baked ideas off of my best friend certainly does not count as “learned discussion.”</p>
<p>What a classroom provides is a forum where you can learn to think critically, learn to think critically about what others say, and learn to think critically about how and what you think. You learn to exercise control over your ideas. And a professor in a class, a class in which you write papers and really wrestle with the material, gives you that. It’s not about memorizing what certain philophers say, it’s about obtaining certain critical apparatus and honing your thinking along the lines of those apparatus, something you can’t get by just reading and talking with whomever you choose.</p>
<p>There is a difference between armchair philosophy and real academic philosophy, and that difference is that the latter is extremely technical and rigorous and more demanding than most people think it to be. But engaging with it for an extended period of time with people who have been engaging with it for years helps a philosophy major to meet those demands.</p>
<p>Your argument is true of philosophy as a leisure activity, but not at a true academic level. </p>
<p>I hope I’ve addresed the “issue at hand” in the more specific way you were looking for.</p>
<p>My argument just deals with your argument, not with the marketability of a philosophy BA. But to that end, I know that at my school, all of the major corporations that recruit do so for students from every school, not just business. I’ve known philosophy majors and classical studies majors and english majors (and engineers and biochem majors, for that matter) who have gone into I-Banking and Private Wealth Management, etc. at Goldman Sachs and HSBC and Wachovia. And they did it straight out of college with the BA.</p>
<p>I’m an English major, also. Go English majors.</p>
<p>you’re an english major, right quake? would you say that in your english classes you “learn to think critically, learn to think critically about what others say, and learn to think critically about how and what you think”, or do you think that’s specific to philosophy classes?</p>
<p>and to everybody, can we please drop the whole ‘college isn’t always about the money’ argument? that’s really not my point and i have never made an argument either way.</p>
<p>"What a classroom provides is a forum where you can learn to think critically, learn to think critically about what others say, and learn to think critically about how and what you think. You learn to exercise control over your ideas. "</p>
<p>LOL Yea, philosophy class (or any other class) is the only place to do that.</p>
<p>yes, english classes are all about thinking critically. philosophy teaches you to be really specific and picky. many people tell me it’s actually a pretty hard major. </p>
<p>it’s also the kind of environment when you’re in the class. you get surrounded by students with the same goals as yours.</p>
<p>“LOL Yea, philosophy class (or any other class) is the only place to do that.”</p>
<p>Completely asinine. I never said class is the only place you can do that. But you’re not going ot get it on a street corner. Classes bring you together with other people and an expert to practice a certain type of thinking that isn’t just innate. The ways philosophers think (from whatever tradition, whether it be Eastern, Analytic, or Continental) are methods that are practiced and honed and grounded historically in the work done before them. That grounding is part of what a classroom gives you that most other forums don’t, that just reading on your own won’t.</p>
<p>el duque…</p>
<p>I don’t think it is specific to philosophy classes. People can think critically in chem labs, sociology classes, finance classes, etc. For me it is just a choice of what i want to think critically ABOUT.</p>