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<p>But you’re not really interested in making the curriculum stronger or in advocating for reform. You’re just interested in sharing with us yet one more time how inferior the US school system is to the apparently-perfect Indian school system (where only 15% make it to high school, but hey, those who do learn an awful lot!).</p>
<p>In my friend circle people are pretty open about sharing many things about their kids.</p>
<p>So many things equals only where they go to school or where they work?
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<p>Because everything is a tradeoff, and the 11 yo who is sitting inside with his math books because it’s oh-so-important for him to be taking math that most people take out in college misses out on the important parts of being a young boy. Excellence is an important value, but so is moderation. It doesn’t have to be learned right-this-minute. Education is a lifelong process, not something that requires completion by age 14 or so.</p>
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<p>Sure it is.
Here’s an SAT analogy!
“My kid goes to XX school” is to “My kid’s SAT scores were xxxx”
as
“I work as a ___ for XYZ Company” is to “I make $xxx,xxxx a year.”</p>
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<p>I’ve got a question to ask you, IP. How many 11 year olds are out there that can do well on the SAT, 10%, 1%, or 0.01%? Could you help Amy Chua’s sister who didn’t make into college get BS/JD/MD like Chua and her other sister from Harvard? In other words, are people different intelligence-wise regardless of how much preps they do? (well, more than one question)</p>
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<p>11 year GIFTED kids do well in the SAT. Not average, normal 11 year old kids.<br>
And the average kid in the US does find the SAT at least somewhat challenging, otherwise the mean scores would be higher than they are.</p>
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<p>IP, all of us might be tempted to go to extremes when making a point, especially when trying to “rattle” everyone’s cage.</p>
<p>The SAT does contain a number of questions that are definitely at the middle school level, plenty of questions that are at the junior high level, and a number of questions that would puzzle most college students. That is why the SAT is normed to yield an “average” score of 500, and has successfully done so for decades. </p>
<p>Were you to analyze the test a bit, or perhaps take one to amuse yourself, you might discover that the relative difficulty of the test does not entirely come from the material tested but from a combination of time and nervous pressures, and perhaps its lengthy nature. For many students, the SAT is a very different type of test. At least very different from the typical school work they have been exposed to.</p>
<p>Fwiw, you are entitled to consider the SAT test to be meaningless or worthless. Plenty of people do share this opinion, and have gone as far as forming organizations to combat the use of standardized tests. You might find a fertile environment to plant your seeds of negativity in the mind of people who support FairTest, or even add a few facts to your own through studying the impact of the SAT. </p>
<p>Speaking about the “remaining fact” here is one. Despite the best efforts of some, a better solution has not emerged. The ACT organization challenged the monopoly of the SAT, and based on its success to convince the fly-over states legislators have reached an equal status to the mighty College Board offering. While pretending to be different, over the years the ACT has simply morphed in a test that is very similar to its competitor, except for few details. All in all, there are no better tests to provide an acceptable and relatively cheap yardstick to give a national context to the different grading policies that exist around the US and the world.</p>
<p>As far as the “prep” industry, you are also correct that it deserves plenty of criticism. The industry has done a wonderful job to play on the insecurities of the baby boomers generations of parents. But can you blame them when about every conversation about children turns into a debate about “getting” into the right college, and what NEEDS to be done to maximize the chances of the kids? </p>
<p>I do not think you are “that” different. Despite professing your disdain for standardized tests and for most of the issues that have been debated in this forum, here you are … discussing college admission in what seems to be a handful of years too early! You pretend not to know about the SAT, except for running into kids in the lobby of buildings? Here’s my prediction … in a couple of months, you will be able to drive to a Chyten-like business with one eye closed; you will also move from the camp of detractors to the camp of the people who want to do what they THINK is … necessary for their children. And that will include finding the best way to “ace the test” at … whatever cost. </p>
<p>Deny it all you want today, but you will be here with a different attitude and more than probably a different name! :)</p>
<p>“All I said was that if 11 year olds can do well in SAT, then the SAT is likely not a very hard exam”
oh please… saying that eleven year-olds can do well in the SAT is like saying pianists are already playing at Carnegie Hall when they are in their teens, so what’s hard about that? MOST eleven years olds, including most students in India and China, do NOT score in the top 1% of the population, just as most teenage pianists don’t perform at Carnagie. But as you are oblivious to the possible existence of lesser minds in your community or country, I give up. Your posts are perfect examples of the thinking processes of a rich, intellectual, elitist snobs, snug in their own little world.
Ta ta!</p>
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<p>IP isn’t considering the SAT test meaningless / worthless because he believes standardized testing in and of itself is meaningless / worthless. He simply thinks that the SAT itself is too easy. He’s not rejecting the concept, though. It should all be standardized testing! Why, maybe we should do it just like they do in India and China, where it’s all basically down to scores on one test! That would be utterly perfect in every way!</p>
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<p>Well, not to mention, there are actually people on CC - incredible as it may seem - who are preoccupied with HYPSM – who actually use terms like upper and lower Ivies without a bit of irony – and who believe that diplomas from those schools open up so many possible doors that are firmly closed if you go to a “mere” top school. Such people are laughable, of course, but they do exist.</p>
<p>This thread has seriously gotten off topic and negative.</p>
<p>What’s the topic, Getacar?</p>
<p>PG - I would not mind if these types who are preoccupied with upper and lower Ivies confined their opinions to CC, but they also seem to be increasingly well-represented as HR execs and hiring managers in a number of organizations that hire new grads. Even organizations that used to be far more eclectic wrt to the range of schools they would consider when recruiting new grads.</p>
<p>This seems to be true to some extent even in tech fields, such that when corporations whine and carry on to the whazoos about the shortage of US STEM grads that is forcing them to outsource, what they really mean is that there is a shortage of STEM grads from a short list of approved schools. So, parents who are not themselves well-networked in fields their children seek to enter, and whose children are not interested in entering professions in which undergrad degree tends not to matter so much, do tend to become frantic.</p>
<p>Clearly some 11 year olds could do better at the SAT than could IP, a dude with rigorous Indian training AND multiple American graduate degrees. Unless a huge percentage of candidates are getting 2400’s, I can’t see how it can be defined as a trivial test, or one that can’t sort candidates to the degree that the colleges need.</p>
<p>I think IP is taking a superficial look at the SAT questions. In my experience, every question in math is doable by an educated person in a numerate profession. But doing them all without error in the time available - not so easy. If you think a question is easy, but it takes you 10-15 minutes to do it - remember there are 11 year olds doing it in 1 minute.</p>
<p>But it funny to look at admission tests in India. For example, medicine is an undergraduate degree over there, so 17-18 year olds are writing a national standardized test which emphasizes rote memorization of all sorts of basic science facts. </p>
<p>To be fair, admission in India is NOT solely based on test score, there is also strong affirmative action. For example, 27% of medical school places are reserved for “non-creamy layer” students, which is about the most hilariously stupid jargon I have ever seen.</p>
<p>[AIPMT</a> MBBS/BDS 2012 Entrance Exam Dates Application Forms Eligibility Syllabus Admission Test Papers Results](<a href=“http://entrance-exam.net/aipmt-2009/]AIPMT”>AIPMT MBBS/BDS 2012 Entrance Exam Dates Application Forms Eligibility Syllabus Admission Test Papers Results)</p>
<p>Xiggi, you think I am going to open a test prep business!?</p>
<p>Sorghum, you seem upset.</p>
<p>There seems to be a strong opinion here that SATs are rigorous enough. While I disagree, I would like to hear from a few others who earlier in this thread expressed a similar opinion. I believe that any criticism from me about the American education system will immediately be viewed through a jingoistic lens. Which is unfortunate, as I have been a citizen for a decade.</p>
<p>Nice to see things are moving along about as expected :)</p>
<p>FWIW, and while this question wasn’t directed at me, I’ll take a stab anyway. IP asked PG why she was upset with him. He asked the same of xiggi and others. Didn’t look like either of their posts came across as sounding “upset”. Then again, if a poster is then told “You really have a closed mind”, like PG was, I’d understand why she might get upset.</p>
<p>Xiggis’ post#207 is spot on. And back to topic, whatever the topic may be, few will argue that there are issues with standardized tests, AP exams, IQ tests, you name it. While fortunatley, EK, the newer versions of the IQ tests are less culturally biased, they are not perfect. No test is. The tests, speaking largely of the college admissions, GMAT, LSAT, MCAT, etc are merely a yardstick to measure in some cases knowledges and in other cases problem-solving. Too bad the Miller analogies went the way of the dodobird. They were fun. </p>
<p>I am not up on the research on this, but IIRC, there were studies correlating performance on the SAT with success in college (at least freshman year). Anyone recall the studies? That is what the test was supposed to measure-- or predict-- academic success. Its taken on a bigger meaning and power, as schools give the scores more value than they should. And when the scores become increasingly important in the acceptance process, people do more to earn those top scores. Whether an 11 yr old can ace the test is, IMO, irrelevant, other than as others have said, using it for admission to the summer enrichment programs, or grandma’s bragging rights. </p>
<p>And agreed, there are sociocultural differences with respect to this stuff. On the one hand I hear distain for these tests, yet in the next breath I hear that parents and family discuss and compare their kids scores openly. It seems like a double standard, but thats not my cultural community. As an example, there is a nearby fast food/sandwich shop that we used to go to very frequently. The owners knew us very well. They would start making the sandwiches we wanted the minute we walked iin the door. We didn’t even have to ask. They happen to be Indian. Her s and my s did not go to school together, but were the same age. One day I went in, and the owner asked me how my s was doing, where he was going to college, and what his SAT scores were! I was a bit taken aback, as I had never been asked that question directly before. I hesitated, but she really seemed to want an answser, so I told her. Turns out his were higher than her sons. I am not sure she expected that.</p>
<p>PG, do you think kids should be able to do what they want to do, or should parents force them to do something to be “normal”?</p>
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<p>This is totally an “aside” but I’ve seen very few people who immigrate to the US as adults, who don’t have some bit of a “things were better in the old country mentality”. My folks were immigrants and they left under dire circumstances and admitted that their lives were better here than they ever would have imagined and there were always situations where they’d shake their heads and go into–“back in the old country, we would . . . . . .” At which point, their children would start reciting the rest of the commentary.</p>