Why it's inane to think everyone should attend a "reach"

Parents Forum
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<p>palmero,
Even so-called party schools have a group of serious students. Such students find each other in honors dorms, while taking challenging classes, while participating in the more serious, academic ECs, etc.</p>

<p>As for your idea that a reach school is likely to be unaffordable, check out the financial aid section and scholarship sections of colleges’ web sites before having your S apply. Look for schools that guarantee to meet 100% of students’ documented need. </p>

<p>I also suggest that your S apply to at least one match school.</p>

<p>Since your S is shy and quiet it may be that he thinks that going to a party school will transform him into an extrovert. That’s unlikely. Thus, it may help him to visit a variety of types of schools to look for one where his personality matches the personalities of the other students. When you do this, however, I strongly suggest only looking at schools that seem affordable. No reason to have him fall in love with a school that obviously would not be affordable.</p>

<p>One last thing, many students change a great deal from Sept. until May of their senior year in terms of how they view themselves and the world. For some, a college that seems perfect in Sept. of their senior year no longer fits the bill in March after they have acquired more wisdom about themselves and about colleges. It’s also possible for shy students to finally blossom their senior years in high school. More reason for your son to apply to some additional colleges so as to give himself some different options.</p>

<p>One last thing: Based on how you describe the school he loves and how his stats are far above theirs, I imagine that he’d be a good candidate for good merit aid there if the school offers it. If that’s a possibility think seriously about whether if your son got such an offer, you’d want him to turn it down for a more challenging school that you could afford, but that still would cost more than would his current favor. </p>

<p>It would be unfortunate if you encouraged him to reach higher and then ended up trying to convince him to turn down a more academically challenging school for the school he originally desired.</p>

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<p>Palermo, reading your post brings back many memories. I was not terribly shy, although more introverted than extrovert, but I suffered a terrible emotional trauma summer before senior year of high school, and was still recovering when I was thinking about colleges. I went to a party school where my stats were way above the norm. I majored in an unpopular, academically strenous major, and had small classes, great friends, and close relationships with my teachers. I could have done much “better” on the USNWR scale, but I couldn’t have had an experience better for me as an 18 year old, given my mental and emotional state when I left home.</p>

<p>I’m saying all this to make the point that he may do much better where he is comfortable than at the “best place he can get in”. Northstarmom’s advice is excellent. Run your FAFSA now, go to some college websites and run the calculators that mimic the Profile for those schools, read some of the threads here on the ins and outs of financial aid. I’m not sure that I would want to go through the pain of applying to a reach, gaining admission, and then not be able to afford the school. FA is so variable, though, you can’t just look at price alone, and say can’t afford it.</p>

<p>NSM’s point about applying to other schools is very important. Ask him what he likes about this school, and find other schools with the same characteristics - there will be others that are more selective, and less selective. He doesn’t have to apply to 10 or even 5 other schools if he likes this one, but depending on selectivity he should apply to at least 2-3 others so that he can have a choice and alternatives - he may have different priorities spring of senior year.</p>

<p>A successful outcome is a school that is good for him, as he is now, balancing atmosphere, academics and stress.</p>

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<p>I think the discussion so far has implicitly assumed that all kids can be ranked on a single dimension (as registered by GPA or test scores). It also implicitly assumes that colleges have only one major or offer opportunities for excellence only to students with certain interests.</p>

<p>While certainly there are some exceptional students who perform near the top at whatever they try to do (math, music, art, athletics, foreign language, writing, etc.), these are few in number and certainly don’t make up the “top 25%” of any college or university.</p>

<p>A given student with “middling” test scores or grades may attend a “reach” school and thrive there because of the challenges offered in core courses and the possibilities to develop skills in their areas of particular interest or intellectual strength.</p>

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<p>Many wise points being made here. Some specifically,
NSM:
Yes, some of these pts were also made on the Yield thread (those of us with students who indeed changed, matured, became clearer during Sr. Yr. development). That is why I’m in favor of return visits for undecided students; it can really change the picture (re-align factors) just before decision time. You actually hang out with those same students you potentially will be enrolled with, go to a kind of a class you may attend. It’s “reality” as a check on the fantasy.</p>

<p>momsdream:
I like your comments about the economic factors & life changes/opportunities that college can bring for those lower on the scale, courtesy of the linked article. I wanted to add that a similar <em>high school</em> choice can also make such a difference – merely reinforcing the point in the article. My D’s graduating class includes one girl who is from a seriously deprived economic & educational background. In some ways, she did struggle academically, but with help in the smaller school environment, attention from teachers, & determination from herself, she did well enough to chart her college & career future, which will consist of a small local 4-yr. LAC with a specific career emphasis in her major talent. Without a h.s. of this caliber, her future would not have been a bright one, yet going in, I worried about her “fit” within such an elegant & demanding environment. Two (unemployed) parents living on one early-retirement income had the time & energy to help make it work for her; they were clever & wise about their D. The college chosen also has support services (tutoring, etc.), so she will not be adrift should she need future help.</p>

<p>Jamimom’s comments:
Personally, I always look beyond college to professional or grad school or career opportunities, but not enough applicants & families do. Your pre-med examples illustrate the dangers of ignoring that. If one is headed for a specific career, check out graduate school or professional school acceptances from the undergrad college of choice, & be honest with yourself about where you rank within the undergrad acceptees. In certain academic fields it is esp. imp. to ensure that your undergrad school has opportunities to allow you to excel & get noticed, & that your GPA remains high. Even the reputation of HYPSM or a great Public will not guarantee grad school admission to a similar college; this happened to a brilliant friend of ours recently, who got rejected from every single top-tier grad school.</p>

<p>And in some academic fields, the emphasis of the undergrad school in that field is also critical to career opportunities and/or grad school opportunities. If you hope to study musical theater, a school which emphasizes music theory over performance will not help you in the way a performance-oriented program will. Similarly for certain science/technology areas, etc. Yet it’s surpising how many students ignore this obvious piece of advice – looking instead to the <em>overall</em> reputation of the college/U. I have yet to find a college whose programs & majors are all equally adequate, equally “perfect.” </p>

<p>speckledegg, I enjoyed the visual about the “palms up.” I can picture the shrugged shoulders, too.</p>

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<p>I’ve just spent the morning doing some research on 4-year graduation rates at various universities and colleges. It is very interesting to see how some of the expectations we all have about “elite” colleges are challenged when you look at 4-year graduation rates, especially when you focus in on them based on SAT score ranges. </p>

<p>For example, your chances of graduating in 4 years from Stone Hill College in Mass., where the average SAT is around 1100 are about the same as if you attended Washington & Lee, Colby, or Bucknell. And, your chances of graduating from Stone Hill in 4 years are SIGNIFICANTLY better than if you attended U of Michigan-Ann Arbor, UC Berkeley, UCLA, all schools which people would consider “reaches” and more “elite” and more prestigious and therefore better. </p>

<p>And, even if you just look at the “top” private schools, there’s a wide range. Harvard’s 4-year graduation rate is actually lower than Williams, GEorgetown, Amherst, Davidson, and Haverford, and the same as the Colege of the Holy Cross and Boston College. </p>

<p>My point is, “reach” schools aren’t always the quickest - or best - way to graduation. And, it pays to examine schools that you consider matches, safeties and reaches carefully because there are wide variations between schools that will fall into each level for you.</p>

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<p>Where did your graduation rate info come from?</p>

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<p>Try this:</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■/search1ba.aspx?InstitutionID=[/url]”>http://www.■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■/search1ba.aspx?InstitutionID=&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Takes a little time to download.</p>

<p>Some feel the six year figures are more representative.</p>

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<p>i like this thread. i’d be really happy if i’m ranked at the top in a state school honors program than bottom at Wharton</p>

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<p>Northstarmom, Eddy is correct, my research is from <a href=“http://www.■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■%5B/url%5D”>www.■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■</a>., but you can get the same info. from US News Premium edition. I prefer the collegeresults site because You can also sort colleges by graduation rates for minorities, something I think you will find of interest.</p>

<p>Eddy, I go back and forth on the six year rate as being more representative. I think most people expect to graduate from college in four years, and consider taking six years to graduate as a negative. Certainly, if your goal is to go to med school, law school, or even graduate school, finishing undergrad in 4 years is an advantage. So, I am relying on 4 year rates. However, the basic numbers hold true either way, whether one looks at 4 or 6 year rates. There are simply some schools that do a better job of graduating students.</p>

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<p>Carolyn, I, too, go back and forth on the six year issue. Anecdotally, my son informs me that several freshman classmates (at least five by my count) either have been asked to take some time off from school next year to regroup (one or two semesters) or have decided to do the same without the request from the administration. I’m further told all of these students are capable of completing the program.</p>

<p>If the calculation is purely statistical, these (at least) five students, assuming they all come back and complete their programs in more than four years will dramatically skew the graduation rate, as they represent nearly 2% of the class. Add in what I don’t know (which is plenty), and I can see a dramatic impact on graduation rates.</p>

<p>Assuming they all get back on track, and I’m told almost all do, the six year rate makes sense.</p>

<p>On another note, I recall reading that, at many public institutions, it is sometimes impossible given limited class size and availability to complete certain majors in four years, regardless of the students’ intentions. I know this was the case with my brother-in-law at UTexas. Another argument for the six year approach.</p>

<p>Finally, it is most interesting to overlay the four and six year results, and to see the redistribution of schools.</p>

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<p>Eddy, I think the 6-year rate makes sense at the large public universities for a different reason than the one one that you mention. At many of these universities, typically some 70% of students work during the school year, not full time but some 10-20 hours. They pay their rent and other expenses that way. As a result, they also tend to take perhaps 12 credits rather than 15 each semester, and this would be considered “full-time” at many schools. If you have a semester system and students have 120 credit hours to accumulate, it would take 10 semesters at a rate of 12 per semester. </p>

<p>While bottlenecks in getting into classes are another factor at some schools, probably a more important one is that students often change majors. While they could get to the 120 credit hours in a reasonable time, they need to meet specific requirements of their majors (and often of the colleges in which the majors are located), and if the students don’t make good choices early on or they change majors they end up having to take more than the 120 credit hours – which also, of course, costs more money (unless they have block tuition), which means that the students may have to work a bit more to get the funds.</p>

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<p>Agreed. I think the short of it is, the six year rate makes the most sense, for these and many other reasons.</p>

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<p>Observed previously on the Brown admissions site timeline they trumpet the class of 2005 will graduate in 2009, and Brown and Harvard, which was mentioned in this thead have 90-something % 4 year grad rates. Does admissions itself ensure grad success, ie. getting thru the gate?</p>

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<p>At many colleges, that’s certainly the case. It’s far harder to get into the most selective schools than to graduate once accepted. Some students may drop out or find themselves completely unable to cope, but they would probably have fared poorly at a big state school, too. The very selective schools have strong support mechanisms in place to help students in academic trouble. Judicious selection of major and courses should enable anyone who gets in the door and puts forth some effort to graduate.</p>

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<p>Dudedad, Brown actually does not have a 90% 4 year graduation rate. Neither does Harvard. They do, however, both have SIX year graduation rates above 90%. So if they are claiming a 4 year grad rate of above 90%, it is not true, at least historically.</p>

<p>Again, I am of mixed feelings about using 4 year vs. six year rates. I think most parents and kids expect graduation in 4 years, especially from high priced private schools. But, as Eddy points out different schools can have different policies that can affect that. Reed is a good example - their four year grad rate is pretty dismal but they require all students to pass a comprehensive exam in junior year before they can proceed towards graduation. Failing to do so bumps you back into retaking classes.</p>

<p>As for the publics, the top 10 do change if you use 6 year rates. UVA, William & Mary are still at the top with over 90% 6 year grad rates each. But UCLA, UCB, UCSD and PEnn State all now go into the top ten when you look at six year rates. The UC’s have a 30% difference between their 4 and 6 year rates. So, I think it is correct: the best sense of how a school performs may be to look at BOTH four and six year rates. One tells you how many students get out within “normal” time, the other tells you how many eventually graduate.</p>

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<p>The most important school is the safety. Well chosen, it makes the rest of the process less stressful, and can help students focus on their absolute needs; their bottom line for academic, social and financial expectations. I don’t think a reach school is always the school that is outside your stats. Today you could be qualified and still not get accepted into a school simply because there is no room. These colleges may have the same admission stats except for the actual percentage of applicants accepted. They might be better known, have a nicer dorm or be better located and so have more applicants.</p>

<p>The other situation that comes to mind is when a student has a less than stellar high school career simply because they put their effort into other areas which may be included in their college course selection. An art enthusiast who is not interested in getting an A in AP Calculus, or Trig for that matter. Those students might want to reach for a college because of a particular department, or opportunity.</p>

<p>For too many students I have talked with their “reach” schools were just better known than the other schools on their lists and not better matches for their goals or personalities.</p>

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<p>

Well done Carolyn and more importantly your daughter … I can only hope I can say the same thing three times over the next few years (whether the schools are “reaches” or not)</p>

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<p>What is wrong with being challenged? Technically speaking, once you’re admitted, it is no longer a “reach”. If they admit you, they deemed you a fit for the school.</p>

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<p>I just completed my first year at a college that I applied to as a “reach school”. It has been an amazing experience, I have been challenged and I have been surrounded by brilliant students with amazing ideas. I go back next week because I was offered a paid research position in the Biology labs for this summer. I’ve worked hard and been given amazing opportunities I know I would not have encountered at the other schools I considered.</p>

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<p>a while ago, i found a website that matched me up with reach colleges, and you know the perfect college…etc…, does anyone know a website like this? i can’t seem to find it!</p>