Yes, and they were actively discouraged. Mostly by their teachers, but also by their peers.
Take a look at the stats for how many women are getting PhD in EE. The tide has yet to turn!
Checked out one STEM school with 30 EE faculty and only three were women. One was mainstream American and the other two were from China and India, bur earned their PhD’s stateside. There were eight freshly minted EE PhD graduates, but no women in the group.
Curiosity drove me to look at the undergraduate enrollments. It does not appear to be a math issue. With only 37% of the student body women, 50% of the math majors were women, whereas only 24% of the physics majors are women. Interesting that sixty-six percent of the Biomedical Engineering majors were women. BE is basically ME with some EE and Chem Eng thrown in. The ME and EE fields are low on their interests list.
Why? Do we know what is at work here? What is their culture teaching them?
A long time ago my wife and I tried to convince a female undergraduate Chem Eng to visit schools to talk up the field. She was a graduate of the Bronx HS of Science and was the only the only Hispanic American in the college studying Chem Eng. Her answer was a flat no. About ten years later she had found our forwarding address and sent a letter explaining that she found out she was the only female Hispanic American Chem Eng registered in the state of Florida at the time (about 1992). She wanted us to know that she was involved is a special effort to explain Chem Eng to girls in secondary school. We were very pleased to receive this letter!
Change takes time and effort. Now, if I could only type!
There is more to a good education than collecting the largest number of AP course credits. What is the learning process about?
Eight elite private schools in the Washington DC area are shifting focus away from piled on AP offerings:
“The perception that colleges demand AP courses leads many students, perhaps reluctantly, to pass up other classes they might find more intellectually transformative and rewarding,” the statement says. “Concurrently, because AP tests loom so large, faculty teaching these courses often feel pressed to sacrifice in-depth inquiry in order to cover all the material likely to be included on the test. This runs counter to the fact that college courses demand critical thinking and rigorous analysis. AP courses, by contrast, often stress speed of assimilation and memorization”
Whether they are standardized test scores or a focus on the collection of AP courses, the proper function of these educational tools should be placed in perspective as students, parents and teachers are making their course and college selection decisions.
My points:
1. An overemphasis of Standardized test scores leads students and parents to circumscribe their options and potential;
2. An over emphasis on AP courses may have an adverse impact on student interests and development;
3. And it is all done in the name of college admissions;
4. Don’t jump on a band wagon.
For more on the AP courses topic see http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/2086720-eight-private-high-schools-in-dc-dropping-ap-courses-p1.html. These eight secondary schools truly are top echelon private schools.
It is also true that the AP programs are presenting opportunities to advanced students in programs that may not otherwise have the resources to satisfy some genuine student needs.
What about critical thinking and rigorous analysis?
More reasons for holistic admissions!
Thread reopened by request. See also this thread: http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/sat-act-tests-test-preparation/2187569-how-could-sats-possibly-still-happen-why-does-cb-refuse-to-acknowledge-reality-p1.html
“More reasons for holistic admissions!”
Holistic is basically a way of the college rationalizing who it admits:
From LA Times:
“As an admissions professional, I gave students, families and guidance counselors a list of what it took to be admitted — the objective expectations of a competitive applicant. I didn’t mention that racial stereotyping, money, connections and athletics sometimes overshadow these high benchmarks we all promoted. The veil of holistic admissions allows for these other factors to become key elements in a student’s admissions decision.”
She was an adcom at UPenn and Franklin and Marshall. And the info form the Harvard lawsuit pretty much confirms all she said.
“These eight secondary schools truly are top echelon private schools.”
No way an underfunded public high school in a rural town in CA is going to get rid of APs, assuming it even has any, for a more holistic grading system.
“The veil of holistic admissions allows for these other factors to become key elements in a student’s admissions decision.”
Wow! How will Harvard be able to select their classes now? There goes the neighborhood! URM data samples have been treated differently by many admissions offices for soundly supported reasons for decades.
Actually, those familiar with the history of the development of the IQ tests would disagree with the “objectivity” argument. The SAT test do not even pretend to be an IQ tests. Somehow we forget this when we look at easily compared numbers.
My own work many years ago with the use of multi variant analysis indicated that secondary GPA was a far stronger predictor of university academic success than were SAT scores. In the old traditional STEM university setting, we found that MSAT scores explained a higher percentage of the variance in college GPA than did VSAT scores. When one allowed for collinearity of the explanatory variables, only secondary school GPA and and MSAT remained significant. The old “achievement” (ACH) test scores were better predictors than were the SAT scores with secondary school GPA playing a much MORE significant role than any testing scores. Please note, by the third year the secondary school variables played NO significant role in prediction of college GPA.
(NOTE: complete data sets were used for entire classes over a period of years. We actually had to reserve a large air conditioned room filled with one computer to crank out the analysis. I believe it was called an RCA Spectra 70, yes, it was a long time ago!)
Speculation enters in here:
Is it possible that motivation is the primary driver and not test scores. Are GPAs a better proxy for motivation? After arrival on campus do we really need more personalized attention to individual student needs than are found in large lecture formats. To sustain and develop self confidence a university needs to offer an environment which is eclectic to the individual student. This is an argument for a more personalized university/college environment. However, learning how to work well in groups still plays a large role.
Yes, “standardized” scores were/are used, but were they used for the right reasons or just to justify a quick solution… now read the next application. How many do we have to read today? Nowhere above have I even mentioned the complications added by URM groups.
“Wow! How will Harvard be able to select their classes now? There goes the neighborhood! URM data samples have been treated differently by many admissions offices for soundly supported reasons for decades.”
Well test optional is different than test blind, so students that did well on their tests will submit them and they’ll be considered. And you can submit AP and subject test scores as well.
Many test optional colleges have pretty high sat/act scores, Bowdoin is a good example since they’ve been practicing t/o for a while, from their website, thirty-one percent of the Class of 2023 chose not to submit test scores, so really, most did submit and the median was 1490/33.
Test optional will allow the Harvards of the world to basically tell its lower SAT/ACT students to not submit so the average can look better. Imagine not having to worry about that pesky 1200 score from the legacy you pretty much have to admit.
It’s less transparent, so not a win for students and parents that planning to apply.
Looking at Bowdoin test data requires more analysis, because they are one of the schools that requires every matriculating students to submit a test score, even if they applied TO.
Future applicants should look at this data when deciding whether or not to apply TO.
Here is the source for median scores of the those accepted to the class of 2023:
-SAT EBRW 730 (700-760 mid 50%) and Math 760 (720-790 mid 50%). Note you can not add the two component medians to get a median composite.
-ACT is 33 (32-34 mid 50%)
https://www.bowdoin.edu/admissions/at-a-glance/class-of-2023.html
Bowdoin’s common data set reflects the test scores for all matriculating students, and we see the scores fall off:
SAT Comp mid 50%: 1340-1512 (1512 is probably a typo on their CDS)
EBRW: 660-740
Math: 670-780
ACT: 31-34
I think about my state flagship, UF. The middle 50% for GPA is 4.4 to 4.6. Pretty much everyone has over a 4.0. If they take away test scores, will that put even more pressure on kids to take tons of AP classes? Kids from our HS that go to UF are typically taking at least a dozen AP/AICE/DE classes. My daughter will graduate with 10AP, 4 Aice and 2 DE classes. In my opinion its already too many.
Please note that weighted GPA’s are not commonly used by admissions offices because the weighting systems used by schools vary widely. Selective universities are comparing grades from a wide range of both private and public secondary programs. Don’t be distracted (or impressed) by the high weighted systems scores. As imperfect as they may be, the more commonly used GPA’s are the Unweighted scores. The admissions committee can then read secondary school profiles and specific course descriptions as advanced courses come in many different forms.
Prior to the individual readings, some universities may use computerized screening to sort out some basics, but this is not, in my experience, the final selection process. Yes, it is a difficult and time consuming job just to render a “yes” or “no” answer.
AP courses have grown dramatically across the nation. All good students and anxious parents feel they are virtually required to have them because so many students are making multiple applications as they apply to a large number of universities/colleges. Math in particular is a highly structured system dependent on a complete and solid foundation as students move along. I learned this by jogging for years with math professors who were running studies of freshman students and secondary school. math. By way of example, there are some very important concepts in the second year of algebra which are critical to many advanced studies. If the simultaneous systems base is not very solid, they may show up as critical weaknesses later coursework. It is a building of knowledge on many floors.
Most universities and colleges do have their Common Data Set (CDS) available on line.
For the University of FL, main campus, the class entering in the fall of 2019 reported an average, unweighted secondary school GPA of 3.9. (remember 4.0 is max) They also reported an average weighted score of 4.5… a big difference and a fine class which any state should be proud of!
I only bring this up because we are often comparing the unweighted scores from one university/college to the weighted scores of another. This muddies the admissions waters when students and parents are trying to compare options. They want to know the academic level of would be classmates. This becomes an even more important factor when considering “test optional” universities where standardized test do not play such a important roll. This pressure for information pushes the standardized test scores way out of proportion. It seems like an easy answer.
We don’t need more pressure to take AP classes. AP courses have become a national fixation. Many college professors would like to teach those college AP classes themselves as a quality control. For this reason they often require a score of 4+ on AP exams before accepting the AP course for college credit.
Seems like Florida publics recalculate a weighted GPA.
UF is vague about the formula:
https://questions.ufl.edu/faq/how-will-uf-compute-my-high-school-gpa/
But UCF describes it more fully:
https://www.ucf.edu/admissions/undergraduate/question/how-is-my-high-school-gpa-calculated-for-admission/
Or weighted GPAs of different formulas or unknown formulas.
A common example is someone at a high school which uses aggressively weighted HS GPAs looking at UCs and CSUs in California that mostly publish HS GPAs based on a weighted-capped formula and erroneously thinking that their (for example) 4.5 weighted HS GPA would make a given campus to be a “safety” when their 3.8 weighted-capped HS GPA would actually make that campus a “reach”.
More confusion, colleges that publish a number that exceeds 4.0 in section C12 of the Common Data Set. It’s unclear what they are referring to, an unweighted out of 4.3, or a weighted GPA, but weighted how, with just AP or also honors courses (did the college recalculate these numbers themselves?). And which GPA is it, the one that the enrolled students applied with (6- or 7-semester GPA) or the final high school transcript, 8-semester GPA.
The variability of how HS GPA is calculated for the purpose of reporting in the CDS and otherwise makes it difficult to make cross-college comparisons. This is probably why so many (including USNWR) overweight the SAT/ACT when comparing admission selectivity across different colleges, since it is a conveniently standardized measure, even though it does not capture all of the things that college admissions may consider (these other things may be measured inconsistently like HS GPA, or may be very subjectively measured like essays, recommendations, etc.).
Published/High School-calculated weighted GPAs do suffer from all of the issues above, and are often meaningless.
But this doesn’t mean colleges don’t use weighted GPAs in the admissions process. Many schools, some noted above, calculate their own weighted GPAs using a consistent formula from a student’s transcript. These sometimes include/exclude various courses (an A+ in gym won’t get you much).
Course rigor is certainly an important factor, and consistently weighted GPAs is a way to account for this. While having the “AP” label isn’t the only way to identify a weighted class, it is an easy way to introduce advances courses to schools that otherwise wouldn’t be able to develop and deliver advanced courses to a small subset of students.
@ RichlnPitt
“But this doesn’t mean colleges don’t use weighted GPAs in the admissions process. Many schools, some noted above, calculate their own weighted GPAs using a consistent formula from a student’s transcript. These sometimes include/exclude various courses (an A+ in gym won’t get you much).”
When large applicant pools are from a wide variety of secondary schools, a standardized system of ranking becomes less and less practical. The subjective nature of the selection process becomes more apparent. Selections have to be made and every applicant/parent wants to believe that their decision was “objectively” made… do you believe that.! Objectively, the job is impossible, but we do it anyway!
Assume that initial reviews have culled some applications as they do not meet published university requirements.
IF the primary objective of the university is the successful completion of studies on or before a standardized period of time, there are metrics which may be tested to predict success. The primary metric in this formula has been tested and found to be GPA. I.E, unweighted secondary school GPA beats out standardized tests scores in its ability to forecast university GPA. It is also known that this relationship between secondary school GPA and college GPA weakens significantly after the first two years of university experience.
One can’t simply throw in a number of “weighted” tests scores which use different weighting systems and expect an improvement in predictive relationships. To me, this is apriori.
Why do some student behaviors break the GPA performance norms?
Are these university performance norms even good predictors of “life success” (anyone?)
Not all secondary schools have the same levels of rigor. How can this difference be addressed? (usual answer, profiles of past class college placements)
Subjective methodologies are actually a necessary part of the process. Committee opinions count and are not always based on a numerical scale no matter who developed the test.
Not all universities work the same way, but in my experience committees actually exchanged ideas and opinions. In some cases the “committee” actually had long (i.e. 10 minute) discussions over difficult applications after they had read them individually and alone. Workload required that not all applicants were read by all admission committee members. At that time, I remember the committee’s collective hearts were with the solid student who could better communicate their personal, motivational perspective and how it was uniquely suited to our university. How do you quantify that? Was it tested? Yes, we took personal interest in following some selected cases.
How about the latest effort to revive classic and Western Civilization studies? (see a recent book: “The Right Side of History”)
No time, but there are a number of nameless stories here which would make a good book. Faculty should be writing them. Some you know, but I wounder how they looked on the application
What is AI up to in this area?
In the age of coronavirus, well worth review:
A long post in response to me - do you disagree with my simple statement that schools execute their own weighting processes?
I’m quite confident they do.
Given the author, should the title be The Right-Wing Side of History?
It is not like classics and western civilization studies are missing or absent from US universities. What US universities’ departments of history, political science, etc. that have area or region focused course offerings do not have offerings focused on regions commonly seen as part of western civilization?
For example, the history course listing at https://web.wpi.edu/academics/catalogs/ugrad/hicourses.html shows:
17 courses focused on US history
6 courses focused on European history or history of specific countries in Europe
6 courses focused on regions or countries outside of the US and Europe
3 courses specifically on world or comparative history
7 courses on history of science, technology, environment that do not specify a region, country, or “world”
So 23 on “western civilization”, 6 on other regions or countries, 3 on “world”, and 7 not region specific. I do not see how western civilization studies is being neglected here and needs to be revived.