Meritocracy
@labegg How am I being cheap? Tell me… how much, in your opinion, would be too much for a name brand education? My number is $30k ish. Is your number more than $60k ? What about $90k? I am not being cheap - I just don’t want to give money away needlessly. There has to be some benefit (e.g. better job prospects, higher salary) but in most cases, there isn’t. If I save $55k on her education (assuming I have it), I would much prefer to give her a new car or help pay for graduate school. Paying these exorbitant tuitions is bad for her and bad for everyone in general. I would be creating demand for something when I shouldn’t.
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Apparently your ROI = your daughter’s “happiness” and not having a guilty conscience because you were too worried about the ROI to recognize that you are being cheap.
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I wouldn’t say that he’s being cheap…he’s willing to spend $100k+. For a student with those stats and a bio major, spending $250k for undergrad isn’t the wisest decision unless you have money to burn.
Are you saying that if your daughter got into Columbia or Yale University at an affordable price, you would not let her attend? Both schools are located in blighted areas.
Correct.
I am saying that most OOS/Private 2nd tier schools cost $40k all in (spending money, book etc) You feel that a second tier school is a good fit for her, that is going to cost $40K. Either you are going to pay $40K or you are going to pay $26K and your D is going to pay the rest. You are saying that she is not allowed to take a loan. So again either you are going to pay the difference or she is not going to be able to attend a 2nd tier school. So either accept that you are going to have to give her a bit more or that level education be it academic or social is may not be what you are expecting or good ROI.
So you still haven’t answered my question what advice are you truly looking for?
So now you just have to find schools that she likes, can get accepted at and are affordable.
Also with a good program and in a safe area.
But the comment about the corn field being preferable to pavement, what do you think the kids are going to do at a school that’s near a cornfield and nothing else on the weekends?
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your D is going to pay the rest.
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How is DD going to pay the rest? I thought dad was saying no loans? Did I miss a change? (Not that I would think loans for a bio degree is a good idea anyway. 
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OP, this is such an individual issue. There is no one right answer. The nice thing is that, being human, we will be able to happily justify whichever path we end up taking, if our kids end up making a successful transition to life after college. 
We are/were full pay for both D’s at $$$ schools. Didn’t expect ROI. We were fortunate enough to have the resources, and we were OK with paying the big bucks. And yet…for D1, there was literal ROI because she ended up taking an intro comp sci class at the start of freshman year based on rave reviews for a professor. She’d been expecting to major in something entirely different, but fell in love with CS because of that class. We are in California, where the UCs offer excellent to outstanding CS options, but rarely if ever to someone who had never coded before who decides to take a CS course for the fun of it. She is now working for a tech firm in the kind of job where the ROI is real.
D2: educational testing in high school showed she had significant processing speed deficits. She attended a small high school with supportive teachers and staff. We knew the best thing for her in college would be a small school with a robust support system; even so, we would not have been surprised if she found the jump from high school to college too steep. Freshman year found her working her tush off, doing very badly on some tests, but having professors who worked with her, helped her to adjust her study habits, gave her ongoing advice on academic matters. She’s now a sophomore at a nearby LAC, and doing wonderfully. ROI for her so far is that she is having a successful college experience.
Juniata and Allegheny in PA might give her merit to bring the price down enough, but are they better than your NJ options?
Like OP, my kids were very busy with academics. We understood early on about standardized test scores. H’s idea was at age 16 to get a job, until I showed him test scores and scholarships. My two did better on ACT versus SAT. Many schools will not super-score. SAT is CR + M (single score) and see concordance with ACT composite. If her ACT/equiv goes up a little more it may help.
You don’t have a great deal of time to influence senior HS DD any more, directing her in what she wants to study. Maybe the hope can now be that she has opportunity to improve her major at the school selected if she finds her chosen major won’t get her where she wants to go. At her chosen college, do see their career planning and placement office, so she can research her after college career path.
I would advise this first semester of senior year to be very busy on standardize testing and the college application. At this point, all that will probably still be in play would be Dec testing, since we have passed Sept and Oct testing. One dau had major jump in scholarship money with Dec ACT (took Sept, Oct, and Dec ACT and Oct SAT) - did a lot of practice testing and test tutoring. Her HS GPA was 4.0 un-weighted, 4.2 weighted from college prep Catholic HS. Other DD got a scholarship increase of $12,000 ($3,000/year) with a one point ACT score increase, which she got on Oct test - and was able to skip Dec test 
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Since you have already visited schools, my advice would be to try to get Christmas hire work experience, or as soon as one can - a real job outside of babysitting. That will give DD a taste of reality. McDonald’s may be a big shock, but they hire and it would give entry to maybe another job. Maybe be at a restaurant seating people.
Both my kids have had jobs - one started the summer after HS with a great opportunity, and the other at her college town. One did CLEP testing which was valuable in saving on college courses. They have built up a work resume, which is helpful for their first job with a degree.
My younger DD is engineering material - and she realized it in HS. She likes interior design - and we know students studying that (one has a mom in it, so she will be successful right away with talent and clientele/business which she already has experience with since HS); one that has no family background and was clueless on what DD was getting in to. I have a friend that got her degree later in life and had to work very hard building up clientele and her business. I told DD that she needs to find a career that she likes to be able to live the lifestyle she wants (making the money she wants), and can use her free time with her love with interior design and decorating. These kids having grown up in solid households have a skewed view of what a college degree and their standard of living will be like. I told DD in 7th/8th grade when she told me she likes interior design, I told her “you can’t afford your standard of living with interior design; you are good in math and science, start exploring engineering”. Engineers on both sides of the family including dad. She is thriving as a college engineering student, has had an internship and more ahead. She also was a bit shocked in HS at what her starting engineer salary would be after degree (during senior year I had her take personal finance, which is following DVDs and workbook by Dave Ramsey) “only $XXXXX” - I had to tell her what H and I started at with our salaries out of college, and she now understands she will start out of college with higher salary than many. Again, kids think that they will be at mid or end of career salaries that their parents are at. This is the thinking of youth. Also have a much inflated idea of what their efforts are worth in the job market. That is why an entry job is important for the young adult to see and experience.
Since you live in a higher cost area, perhaps what young adults are able to get into work wise is different. I imagine fast food restaurants have to pay more than minimum wage, and nicer restaurants would have a place for your DD.
OP, what are your D’s actual career interests? A bio degree is hardly a degree that puts her on track to be a CEO, no matter what college she attends. Do you think she will go to med school? (Wait til you see how much money she would have to borrow for that!). Have either of you researched employment options for bio majors who don’t go to med school? She has very few options except your in-state schools anyway with the cost constraints, low test score by merit aid standards, and restrictions on loans. But it isn’t clear what her career plan even is, either.
Allegheny and Juniata are both great suggestions IMO. But I don’t think they are considering LACs at this point (post #91).
I think ~30k is a more realistic number than 26k. If you look around, you should be able to find that bottom line from at least one school in the Sacred Heart, Providence, etc tier. Even so, I think you may be in the position of calling admissions officers and telling them your final offer. I don’t think the Villanovas and Lehighs of the world are going to come down to 40k for you, even if your D can significantly raise her SAT’s. My guess is that her geography will hurt her (they’re loaded with Jersey applicants) and that her GPA and class rank are too low for big bucks from schools so highly rated, but you never know. Of course she should try if that’s what she likes. Just make sure she understands that the most likely outcomes are financial rejections, assuming, of course you’re going to stick with your ~30k figure.
Villanova tuition room and board is about 58k. From the 'Nova scholarship page: “For the 2015-16 academic year, scholarships (ranging between $3,000 to $15,000) were distributed to 1,043 admitted students for a total of $6.88 million. The average, non-negotiable scholarship amount was valued at $6,600, per year. Recipients of the scholarship averaged a 4.36/4.00 GPA on a weighted scale and 1457/1600 with ACT concordance.”
We made it clear with our two that they needed to come out of UG with a degree that they could support themselves. They have good careers planned, are doing well in school, are managing the money well. We saved up and they have money in addition to their scholarships and a pre-paid college plan that we paid for. So we can do little things here and there. They both are in apts now and easing into adult life in stages. There is a lot of growing up that happens during HS and college. Your environment during HS only influences as much as you have been able or unable to help open up their thinking outside of what their friends or friends’ families are doing, good bad or indifferent.
It seems you are trying to break the bubble on some of your daughter’s thinking, while still saying some things that make it seem that you are also over-inflating her potential and ‘fit’ at various schools/programs.
You want her to make her own choices and be happy with her choices ST and LT.
If her older sister is more than one or two years older, you cannot generalize what the college merit and financial aid was then for her and what it will be now for DD HS senior.
Have you asked your daughter what she would prefer? If money were no object? Large university? medium university? Small liberal arts college? Rural or urban? Etc?
Have you read Loren Pope’s Colleges that Change Lives? It highlights a number of LACs where your child might have a shot at merit money. Although I agree that if you are looking for ROI, sign her up for the December SAT and have her do lots of practice tests. An extra 100-150 points would help hugely in the merit department. The unweighted GPA is also important information for planning purposes.
Have you looked at Drew University?
In my opinion the value added at a small LAC is more individualized attention from professors and the possibility of really taking off academically. It also means having an intellectual experience along the lines of what this article describes as “utopia university.” From what you say, your daughter is not primarily interested in “utility university,” or simply getting credentials to get a high paying job. She wants to study something that interests her. You prefer that she pursue a more lucrative field. There is nothing wrong with wanting financial security for your children but it sounds like you and she might have different priorities regarding what college is for.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/13/magazine/what-is-the-point-of-college.html?_r=0
If you are really serious about ROI, according to one study by the Brookings Institute, some of the the best value added options are two-year community colleges I’ve never heard of before. And among four year colleges, Stevens and NJIT are on the list.
http://www.brookings.edu/research/reports2/2015/04/29-beyond-college-rankings-rothwell-kulkarni
As I said before, raising your budget by 10K-15K per year would really expand your options. I can understand that you resent the prospect of paying it. Nobody likes the high cost of college. But, barring an upsurge in your daughter’s test scores, that’s what it’s likely to cost if you plan on some place other than Rutgers.
@mamaedefamilia Yes, she wants a smal to medium sized school. No cities whatsoever - she doesn’t like them. She like small town/rural. Thanks for your help… yes, her scores aren’t the highest but (and keep in mind that dad is typing), her ability and potential is unmatched. If she were to interview at a college, I’m sure she would get more merit aid… she is utterly amazing… smarter than I will ever be. She has a way about her…
- Your daughter does not have Ivy/equivalent school stats
- You believe that name colleges are a total waste of money anyway
- You didn't plan over the years to be able to comfortably afford a full pay private college education
- Since you don't value "name brand" education you are not willing to make the financial sacrifice to pay for one
So what is the purpose of this thread?
Your daughter wants the “name brand” education that you feel is a waste of money? So you are feeling a little guilty and conflicted about telling her you can’t/won’t pay? That is an understandable reaction, but please tell me what some low income student getting a free/near free education has to do with your situation? Your daughter couldn’t get into any of those schools even if you were broke so how is it relevant? How does belittling other people make you feel better about the situation? Your attitude is extremely offensive.
How much are you currently paying for D1?
@planner03 I can see how you would think my thread is offensive. It wasn’t really meant to be - it just turned out that way. I am sorry for this.
Some comments on your comments -
- Agreed
- I never said that. I think that name brand colleges have bad ROI. That doesn't mean I think they are bad or undesirable to attend. 3.This wasn't necessary. Honestly, and I don't mean to brag, but I can write a check for all 4 years today. Again, that isn't the point, it's ROI. I don't just throw money away.
- I value name-brand education only in it's initial ability to get an entry level position and the possibility that it includes a real education (e.g. small classes, instructors that inspire, not to self teach exclusively)
My daughter wants to attend the best school she can - not so much different than any other student. I am not feeling guilty or conflicted but rather frustrated and annoyed. I won’t go into the details of what my oldest reports on who get’s free money at her school but I can assure you not many would be happy. These are NOT high end students in any shape or form - this is one of the reasons why I am annoyed.
I am not trying to belittle anyone - if I did, it wouldn’t make feel better. I again apologize for this.