<p>This is a pretty clear case of rationalizing the end justiflying the means. If we can dispense with the silly examples of detentions associated with uniform violations and get back to the real case the OP is dealing with, it’s pretty clear that underage drinking resulting in suspension is exactly the sort of thing the Common Application is asking students to disclose. In addition to being in violation of school rules, underage drinking is actually against the law. I know many on here minimize drinking in high school as being harmless and having engaged in it themselves, rationalize tolerating it as “kids will be kids”. In fact, it’s a very serious social problem and while I don’t think it is always an indication that a kid is seriously off track, it can be an indication that they may be. I can’t see why a college wouldn’t want to know about this and have the applicant explain the circumstances so that the adcom can make a rational decision with as many facts as possible.</p>
<p>But, if the highschool isn’t going to disclose this, I don’t understand why the student would disclose it. It makes no sense to me.</p>
<p>The school instituted a punishment and then wiped the record.</p>
<p>I mean, if you apply for a job and you had a substance violation at one point but the courts gave a probationary community service sentence and then it was expunged from the record, you aren’t expected to state that you once had a substance violation.</p>
<p>If you have a violation at work and HR reprimands you, but it isn’t in writing, you aren’t expected to reveal this to your next potential employer.</p>
<p>Why are high school students a special case?</p>
<p>Regardless, that is not something for a college admissions person to need to “figure out” based on a form. They often ask if kids ‘drink’ on the housing application and if they don’t, they could. They could ask on the common app if they “needed” to know that for all applicants but they don’t. If I apply your logic, they are asking who got caught but didn’t get an MIP which is covered in the second question.</p>
<p>Carry on Poet, I’m already on record early in this thread agreeing with your logic.</p>
<p>Because the question isn’t: “Are there any disciplinary actions on your school record?” It’s: “Have you every been the subject of a disciplinary action?” (or words to that effect)</p>
<p>And if, in applying for a job, you are asked if you’ve ever had a criminal conviction, even if expunged, then the answer had better be “yes,” if that’s the case.</p>
<p>Perhaps the Common App question should be more direct: “Have you ever been the subject of a disciplinary action that you weren’t rich enough, or white enough, or connected enough to get removed from your school record?”</p>
With a few exceptions (state professional license application, military/public office or security related as in law enforcement, security guard or federal jobs with security clearances), that is NOT correct, dodgersmom.</p>
<p>And if, in applying for a job, you are asked if you’ve “ever had a criminal conviction, even if expunged,” then the answer had better be “yes,” if that’s the case.</p>
<p>And, yes, obviously, such a question would be limited to certain jobs.</p>
<p>Why the zealous passion about this?? You were, in your own words, “flat out wrong” about wearing gang colors being a criminal offense, and are now also wrong in your initial insistence that a person whose record was expunged having to disclose it on a job application (with certain exceptions). A s a comment in the NYT comments noted (and in part why it they are a good read) is that job cannot ask you to violate the law.
<p>Neither of my kids ever got into any kind of trouble at school that would lead to a suspension or even a disciplinary action, which kind of surprises me because neither of them are angels, either. But, they were “good kids.”</p>
<p>Some of their friends, also “good kids,” did get into trouble, just bad timing, or caught in the act, or whatnot… nothing like cheating, or anything that would harm anybody else, nothing dangerous. And they did a few things and had I think in school suspensions. (One literally was a for a food fight). But it didn’t go “on the record,” and I can’t imagine anyone wanted it on the record, either.</p>
<p>But, if you feel really compelled to report things your school says you don’t need to report, or to tell you next employer that you were reprimanded for being on the internet at your last job? Do so.</p>
<p>Just don’t assume that’s what all the other students or job applicants are doing, cuz I really highly doubt they are. It might not be “right” in the terms of what you tell your confessor, but it probably makes sense in the realm of what a public institution needs to know about you.</p>
<p>there are certain questions you cannot not ask nor expect an answer from legally on leases, job applicatons etc, why do colleges feel so special they can go above and beyond?</p>
<p>looking at the latest dartmouth mess, its not like they have a hold on intergrity</p>
<p>“Just don’t assume that’s what all the other students or job applicants are doing, cuz I really highly doubt they are. It might not be “right” in the terms of what you tell your confessor, but it probably makes sense in the realm of what a public institution needs to know about you.”</p>
<p>I agree, poetgirl. For what it’s worth, out here in SoCal, most high schools in our area subscribe to the “if it’s on the record, report it, if it’s not then don’t” way of dealing with these things. One GC did make the point at one of the college nights, it is important for the student and counselor to be on the same page about this, whichever way you want to go with it. It would be worse, IMO, for one party to report it and the other not.</p>
<p>I am going to add this article to the conversation. As much as I do agree that you need to report these items, despite something being “removed” from your HS record. I also think our world and what our kids are charged with has gotten rediculous. </p>
<p>I would also like to say that I believe this same student could have done the exact same thing in hundreds of other schools in the US, and had absolutely NO repercussions from it. Much less a felony charge and expulsion. </p>
<p>So the question, although I understand why they ask it, and maintain that it needs to be answered honestly, is not fair because the schools administer discipline unfairly. And as this thread exposes, the discipline they do administer is reported in very different ways. </p>
<p>I have been reading through this thread and I am wondering why this is an issue the school handled alone anyway. Isn’t underage drinking against the law? What else is happening on their watch that they are “dealing with” drugs, incidents of violence? I am not saying kids who drink are felons but there are laws. I wouldn’t want this arbitrary enforcement happening at my children’s school.
I feel like the value of Integrity is being pushed aside here. Doing the right thing when no one is looking is an important concept. Sure she is young and it would stink for this to affect her long term. However, aren’t all of these kids being impacted for the next for years from the decisions they made thus far. How are we deciding who and what should be disclosed? If they excuse a smart kids bad behavior, why not excuse an average kid’s poor grades if they have a excellent behavior?
Your judgement shouldn’t come solely from common ap. Look up the merit descriptions from the schools she is applying to and read their requirements. If you honestly believe your daughter fills those shoes then help that make you determination.</p>
<p>This is a fascinating discussion. I was thinking it about it today when I picked up my daughter and she told me that more than 20 students at her school were just suspended for drinking on a school-sponsored trip. All are AP/honors juniors and seniors, including several with merit scholarships already in place. I’ll be watching to see how the school handles it.</p>
<p>To the OP…wishing you and your DD luck in handling a challenging situation.</p>
<p>my friend had a son who CHOSE to not take enough classes so he could play sports an extra year in college. the school LOVED the idea he would be a fifth year rugby player as it helped their record. he was able to walk at graduation (no degree yet, as he didn’t have all the credits), he was able to reserve a place at the senior picnic (its like booths or whatever, each grad gets a table), and all the rest</p>
<p>was that fair, no not really, he didn’t graduate, he didn’t have the classes, he made choices to hold off graduation and was encouraged to do so, but so he could feel part of the process, not feel left out, get all those fun pictures, name in the brochure, etc, he was allowed to fake it </p>
<p>he graduated in the winter of that year, having TWO grad ceremonies. i asked his mom what she thought, and she thought it was cool. I said but he didn’t graduate and it was his OWN decision, so why should he be allowed to walk with all his buddies and you get to party hearty? She said, well, why not?</p>
<p>so much for integrity on college campuses, it was all about winning games and appreanaces, not who deserved to walk</p>
<p>so I don’t take much creedance to colleges claiming they have all this honor</p>
<p>It is easy to say “don’t be forthcoming about it” when you view the situation. as one young kid who screwed up facing off against a giant heartless organization. In reality though it is one young kid who screwed up potentially taking money out of the pocket of another young kid who did everything required of them from academics to behavior.</p>