Williams, Middlebury, or Bowdoin?

College Search & Lists
,
21

@mwolf (and others) - I guess I am just a heartless engineer, but I am having a little trouble with the notion of not using one’s head (at least a little) when making a $300,000 dollar decision :slight_smile:

This would seem to be the most important question…

Environmental Studies and Environmental Science are not really the same thing. Unless @ucbalumnus can make a case for UCB, I would suggest that UC Davis may be the best benchmark for Environmental Science programs (and UCB may be the benchmark for Environmental Studies).

Because of the tremendous breadth of this major, no NESCAC school is going to be able to offer the depth of offerings across all disciplines that those two schools offer, and each NESCAC school has different strengths/weaknesses.
The biggest complaint I have heard from industry is that many environmental studies programs churn out students that are “jacks of all trades and masters of none” and particularly weak in the hard sciences.

If we look at the UC Davis curriculum, we see that it consists of 11 “preparatory classes” 8-9 of which are basic science courses and two are calculus courses. Then there are 8 “core courses” one of which is a science course and two of which are analytic tools/methods classes (Stats and GIS) and there is a required internship and capstone. Then there are 9 courses required for a specialization
“track” . There are 6 tracks and most of the course options in each track are science courses.
https://ucdavis.pubs.curricunet.com/Catalog/esm

If we look at the Williams Environmental Studies curriculum, we see that it consists of only 11 courses in total - 7 required or “core courses” two of which are science related and a four course specialization “cluster” of which one is a methods course and the other three could be science or math courses.

https://ces.williams.edu/files/2019/10/ENVI-MAJOR-BROCHURE-july-29-2019.pdf

So, Williams’ Environmental Studies program is one of the weaker programs among NESCAC schools when it comes to Environmental Science. I found this somewhat of a paradox given that Williams is considered one of the stronger NESCAC schools when it comes to the traditional sciences. Likewise, when one looks at the actual course content of the Mystic program, it is also light on the sciences. I would suggest the benchmark for science content in a marine studies semester are the programs offered by the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute (which anybody can apply to).

As a cross check, if we look at the number Williams graduates that majored in Environmental Studies last reporting period we see it was only 5 - the lowest in the NESCAC. If we look at the number of Williams students enrolled in the Environmental Studies track of their Summer Science program we see it is one - by far the lowest of any “science” major. If we look at the number of environmental science courses Williams offers this fall we get a grand total of 3 - one on ecology and two on climate change. I would not put Williams on the same tier as Middlebury, Tufts, or Colby (or Bowdoin and Bates) when it comes to Environmental Science. Conn College and Hamilton also have interesting programs , but with these smaller programs, it really comes down to matching one’s interests with the strengths of the particular program.

22

I may have missed something. If you have the stats to have a good shot of getting into any of these schools and aren’t sure which one you like best, why apply ED now? Why not apply RD, see which ones you get into, and then make a decision? By then you may be able to travel and visit the campuses.

When my older daughter (now at Haverford, which she loves) was looking at LACs, we visited Williams and Bowdoin. I first thought Bowdoin was in the middle of nowhere until we went to visit Williams. :slight_smile: (Colby may take the crown on that, however.) Outside of campus, there is just 1 street with any stores and restaurants. There’s a little cafe, a pizza place, Indian (IIRC), a board games store, and the college bookstore. And I think that’s about it. (Look at Spring Street, Williamstown, MA on Google street maps.) Bowdoin on the other hand is in Brunswick, which will never be mistaken for NYC, but is at least a small city.

As for overall feel, I personally liked the Williams campus more than Bowdoin’s. The buildings looked nicer and newer. Their library was AMAZING. Perhaps it was also the time of year, but Bowdoin looked a little old and worn down, like it needed a fresh coat of paint. The fabric on the furniture in the student center was torn and worn out. You could definitely feel the history, but Williams is even older and it didn’t have that vibe.

That said, if you’re interested in Environmental Science, you really should look into the private island that Bowdoin owns. It’s used exclusively for Environmental Science research.

23

@Mastadon If the OP is interested in a larger school, there are many excellent choices, though unless the OP is a California resident, I would not recommend either of those UCs.

For environmental science, there is also SUNY ESF, UVM, and a few more great public schools.

Besides, you are not a heartless engineer, you are a misspelled relative of the elephants and mammoths…?

24

Any idea why Bowdoin, implausibly, registers 0 environmental studies “first majors” by the same source?

https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=Bowdoin&s=all&id=161004#programs

https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=Williams&s=all&id=168342#programs

25

In 2019, Williams had 10 declared environmental majors, Bowdoin had 61 declared environmental majors, and Middlebury had 123 declared environmental majors.

https://communications.williams.edu/media-relations/fast-facts/

https://www.bowdoin.edu/ir/data/currentmajorsminors.html

http://www.middlebury.edu/system/files/media/Majors%20by%20Reported%20RE%20Fall%202019.pdf

26

Williams also has the strongest and largest economics departments of any NESCAC or even Ivy, which also have several well noted environmental economics profs with substantial research and funding in the field. Environmental science and the public policy aspects is a multidisciplinary area that Williams excels at in particular. The campuses are very similar and all very beautiful, Williams has better housing and more single rooms. Also, the Williams endowment is substantially larger which gives the school more resources and spending per student. The key student centered funding for stipends, budgets for summer research, environmental programs generally, are more plentiful.

27

All true. However, the presence of famous instructors and professors is only really relevant if there is a graduate school. They only have 10 students in Environmental Studies, Science, Policy. On the other hand, Economics has over 100, Biology has 60, and Poli Sci has 55. That is a major issue (pun intended), because it means that the students lack peers, lack the dynamic classes, they lack many of the things that you have with a active vibrant student body.

I think that it’s too bad, since Williams does have the potential to really be a top program in environmental science.

However, that will likely not happen any time soon, among other reasons it’s because Williams is simply known for other majors, and there will not be a sudden influx of students who are interested in environmental science to Williams. It is a positive feedback loop - students consider a school to be strong in environmental science so more apply, and there are more majors, further strengthening the environmental science, or vice versa.

Another thing that are requirements for colleges to attract students who are interested in environmental sciences is a strong outdoorsy vibe. Middlebury has it as does Bowdoin, but Williams does not.

Williams simply needs to be more crunchy…

28

While the prettiness of the college campus, its surroundings, or its food, etc. are all worth considering, they’re, at best, secondary or tertiary considerations. Don’t forget the number one reason you go to a college, any college, should be its academics. Compare their academics first, in your field of study and in overall foundation they help build. They aren’t all the same.

29

For environmental studies it has to be Middlebury. For a hiker it also has to be Middlebury. The Trail-around-Middlebury provides 24 miles of hiking right from campus. The Mountain Club makes group outdoor activities easy. Leaving campus for a morning or afternoon to “bag” a peak is a common activity. Lots of options with the Long Trail and other options nearby. All these schools are great, but your interests point straight to Midd. Apply EDI. Have a backup plan for EDII just in case.

30

I would not agree with this assessment. Williams has a very strong “outdoorsy vibe.” Aside from the many, many activities offered by Williams robust Outing Club, students can hike, climb, ski, snowboard etc. on or near campus. And they do.

Though I wouldn’t describe Williams kids as “crunchy” there is a high awareness of sustainability and general appreciation of Williams bucolic mountain village environment.

31

@mwolf

MastAdons are just mastOdons that inhabit the Boston area. They are recognizable by their distinctive accent. :slight_smile:

Mastodons are ancient relatives of both African elephants (such as Tufts’ mascot - Jumbo) and mammoths (such as Amherst’s new mascot). They are more closely related to African elephants, though.

An early name given to mastodons was “The American Incognitum” which some would say is equally applicable to Tufts.

Mastodons played a key role in introducing humans to the concept of extinction as well as debunking “The Theory of American Degeneracy”. None other than Thomas Jefferson conflated mastodons and mammoths in his defense of American virility. Benjamin Franklin (the scientist/engineer) was able to differentiate them.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/mammoths-and-mastodons-all-american-monsters-8898672/

Note that Mastodons have experienced the negative effects of global warming firsthand and therefore take the subject of Environmental Science very seriously…

32

@momrath - I tend to agree with @mwolf

Outdoorsy is not the same as passionate about the environment. There are a lot of outdoor pursuits that are not environmentally friendly. The environmental movement was started/driven by “tree hugging vegetarian hippies”, not economics, premed and prelaw majors. This is not a primary component of the ethos of either Williams or Amherst (or even Bowdoin). Tufts and Middlebury are the NESCAC schools most associated with that ethos (dating all the back to the 1960’s). Many people (including many Tufts students) don’t know that Tufts is located just two miles from the second largest urban forest in the world and that the mountain club owns a lodge in the White Mountains of New Hampshire as well as vans to shuttle students back and forth on weekends. The rock climbing team is both nationally and internationally competitive. Bowdoin, although not particularly “crunchy” got more interested in the environment when they realized that their mascot (the polar bear) was endangered.

33

@Mastadon, The opinion that I disagreed with was that Williams does not have “a strong outdoorsy vibe”. I would say that it does.

34

@Mastadon As an animal ecologist and a mammalogist, I did not expect to learn something new about a mammal on CC, but I did. Thank you for that aside - I enjoyed it!

35

Williams also has invested in its infrastructure, the new environmental studies center building is amazing; also the Center for Learning in Action takes advantage of the Berkshires location to create innovative environmental studies programs. Williams also has the Williams Mystic program which has environmental and oceanography, juniors from all over the country and from Williams spend their junior year at Mystic.

36

@TennisParent I may be going out on a limb here, but I would guess that you like Williams ?

PS. a friend of my daughter’s from high school plays tennis for Williams.