Absolutely true. My comments were in reference to the article that started this thread. It tries to make the point that there is problem because highly educated woman are leaving high pressure jobs with grueling hours in order to work part time and raise children. My point has been that that is not a problem, its simply a choice. We don’t need to focus society’s resources on making the lives of high level partners, and consultants and investment bankers easier.
To those of us who are now retired: Looking back, what gave you more satisfaction, your career or your children? Who is around now, your co-workers or your children?
Yes, money is necessary and a good career can be satisfying, but some perspective needs to be given to those driven people putting career ahead of family. My advice would be children first always.
I don’t know. Work yourself to death in a mindless career for the money vs. find a work-life balance and raise your kids and family. To me the choice is simple.
@MaineLonghorn , the older houses were made to contain costs in many ways. When we updated the wiring in old house from MIL, Our electric bill doubled! Of course it did! Couldn’t vacuum with the window AC unit on. Couldn’t run dishwasher and dryer same time. Or you blew a fuse. Had to think about the electric you used. Now we do as we please.
Only one bathroom so you had to be quick to use it and take some towel baths so the hot water heater didn’t get the work out it now gets.
We live so differently now.
When both spouses work, there is that added cost to get things done that neither can address as well.
I don’t know that there’s a huge, elegant solution, but I think there are three things to work on:
- People, including those who employ other people, have to live the Golden Rule. Children are a good thing. The nation, and society, need children. Therefore employment has to be more accommodating to child rearing, for parents of both sexes. It's a moral obligation, shared by people who are childless themselves or whose children are grown.
I am a partner at a smallish law firm. We are small enough that we have a lot of trouble replacing someone who is suddenly unavailable. We don’t carry excess capacity, and we don’t have a pipeline of new hires gushing in. But we make a huge effort to accommodate pregnancy, childbirth, and all sorts of child-rearing activities between birth and college. It costs us money; I think we are all OK with that. I feel like I know my associates’ and young partners’ children, and I care about them.
- We are one of the few developed countries in the world where people still largely think the care of children under the age of 5 or 6 is primarily a private matter, and we tolerate ridiculously low public investment in infant/toddler care and pre-K, and low expectations, too. I don't know that it would be feasible to have universal free child care for toddlers, but I think there has to be a real effort to make it affordable and to ensure minimum quality. And not on a "school" model, either, six hours/day 185 days/year. We need at least 10 hrs/250 days
- Employment-based health insurance was an OK idea once upon a time in a very different era. Now it stinks. It doesn't work for employers or employees and their dependents, not to mention the health-care industry and insurers themselves (a vanishing breed). Basic public health winds up being unfeasible or weak because insurers and employers can't capture the benefit of strategies to improve long-term health.
I’m not retired ( yet) but I will truthfully say that I derived satisfaction from both raising children and having a career. It’s not either/or.
I wonder how much of these 60-80 hours a week are actually productive and how much are just being there to show you work hard, unnecessary busy work, or just plain inefficient because of fatigue.
There may also be time where one must “be available” to do something on instant notice, whether or not there is actual work to do.
There is a lot of work now that can be done remotely. If that is available, there won’t be as much “being available” without actual work to do.
Productivity will depend on the tasks and person involved. There were long stretches a while back where 80-100 hours was the norm (60-80 hour weeks were viewed as a break). Everyone I worked with was doing it too. And not just in our shop but others we were working with as well. We were quite productive. Actually after normal hours you can often get more done because there are not as many distractions. None of it was busy work.
Again will depend on the job and the person.
Once upon a time many people did not really leave their homes in order to do whatever they did to make a living. Women maybe did seamstress work from their home, for example. Or a couple owned a small store and lived above or behind it, their children tottering around in the store or helping out with it. Or a man opened a small blacksmith shop in an outbuilding.
It seems like there is a modern take on this idea now with many people making things themselves and selling them online or working remotely from home. Friends of ours, husband is an engineering consultant (his own business) with a home office and a work office and wife is a lawyer who also works mostly from home now.
^ and it could be even more attractive if healthcare wasn’t linked to employment making it easier for folks to be entrepreneurial.
“The nation, and society, need children. Therefore employment has to be more accommodating to child rearing, for parents of both sexes. It’s a moral obligation, shared by people who are childless themselves or whose children are grown.”
Even from a selfish perspective, individuals should care about children in our society whether they are our own or not. These are the people we will be relying on in our old age to take care of us both literally and financially. Creating productive, healthy, functioning members of society starts with early investment, IMO. Who’s going to be paying into your social security and medicare?
@sylvan8798 Your comment on working from home reminded me of the Amish. I live in an area with a heavy Amish/Old Order Mennonite presence. Many of them run small businesses from home, and large families work together doing so.
Regarding 60-80 hour work weeks, my personal productivity falls by 70 hrs/week. Those are very productive hours, though. I can only keep up that pace 4 months of the year.
Unless you just LOVE what you are doing and find it more satisfying than being home with family, that just seems like a life of low grade misery. Not enough hours left over after work to do anything fun, certainly not enough hours to get quality rest or physical fitness. What’s the point of a life like that?
As an older woman who stayed home most of these years with many children, I can tell you there are trade offs. Some of the consequences of not keeping up ones with skills can be harsh. I’m one of the lucky ones. My marriage has lasted and Im fully involved in the financial investments and status quo.
Most of my peers have not fared so well. Women, like me who did not work much for pay, and who end up in s “gray divorce”
Are often in difficult financial positions even as they are facing old age, retirement and health issues. Most are alone now, with spouse remarried, often with a new family, kids grown.
I returned to the work force this year for some part time, seasonal work. I made about 50% over minimum wage. Without the resources of my married life, things would be dire. Because I have not worked substantially, my social security payment will be half my husbands. I know many like me, too many, now struggling financially.
I think these days both spouses should find some job that can at least expand to s living wage position. Things happen. Illness, unemployment. Hard times. Staying employable in this rapidly changing world is a challenge and far easier to do if you stay somewhat in the work world. I know ex wives doing housekeeping and childcare, still, to make ends meet because their degrees and job experience are no longer marketable and they need the income.
My H’s last employer expected everyone to be in the office 6 days/week, respond to emails promptly, even those sent in the middle of the night, or on vacation. The company owned him.
Then H had a job change after a re-org 1 1/2 years ago. The switch to his new company’s work culture was like deprogramming from a cult. Similar industry, similarly sized company, but totally different approach. If he’s still in the office at 6 pm, he’s being yelled at to go home. On vacation? No one even would dream of texting or emailing, let alone expect an employee to respond. Your child has an event? Take the day off! It’s snowing? Work from home. It’s been a totally different world.
New company is more profitable, has better employee retention, etc…
IMO, the crazy work hours equalling more productivity is a total myth.
That’s why I will keep a valid nursing license until I’m literally unable to work. Currently I only work PRN, and I’m happy with that. But it keeps my finger in the pie.
Wow, how refreshing.
Even better!
The other model you described and those 80-100 hour weeks mentioned by others just aren’t sustainable without something giving (marriages or other relationships, health, sanity, etc.).
I come from business owners. So as kids, that’s where we where. My father and his brothers/sisters spent their time at the custard shop (and when old enough, had their “chores” to do). When my brother was born, he got his own office – crib, play pen, etc.
We take that approach today. For the young ladies in the office, they can bring their kids in on snow days, Dr. appointment days, mom can’t watch the kid days, etc. When the kids get older, we are flexible with leaving early and days off for events. Heck, years ago we had to make the first day of school a “holiday” – everyone had young kids and wanted to see them off. 
For the most part, it works well. However, we have had times where after a while, employees abuse it. That is when it gets frustrating.
So yes, we have low turnover. Our flexibility is key and makes up for the demanding work.
This conversation really reminds me of several of the college threads where many folks champion the way they did things as being best. In reality, what’s best for one student or family can be completely different than what’s best for another.
I can easily say there are all sorts of parents at the school where I work. Most kids grow up just fine whether dad/mom/both work a ton or whether there’s a SAH parent and everything in between. I’ve seen kids have issues with all types too. The experiences are different, but one isn’t always better than another. Fit the lifestyle to the people involved (finances and what’s important to the individuals included).
Heard comments from some students who returned from an overseas field trip last month… “The people there don’t have much, but they seem so happy! People are so nice to each other.” It truly comes as a shock to some that happiness and money aren’t terribly correlated. Every commercial on TV and various sales pitch would have one thinking it is.
You have to define “crazy work hours.” That will vary by job and by person. What is crazy for one person may not be the same for someone else. Even in the same job with the same company.
None of us lived lives of low grade misery (actually laughed out loud when I read that). We all had lives (and continue to have lives) we thought were well worth living. I can think of a couple people I know well who are divorced (well below what averages would indicate though). Rest of us are happily married. Raised happy well adjusted kids. Some with kids of their own. Others too young at this point. Most through college with others headed there when they graduate high school. All of us are healthy and sane.
For some reason, there are people here who seem to struggle with the concept that different people will make different choices. And be happy with those choices. Even if those choices may not have made you happy. Always seemed odd to see that struggle at a site for higher education though not the only oddity here.