Alcohol consumption actually plummeted by about half during the very short time that it was around. Oh, and research shows that limiting the sale of guns actually does reduce gun crime. So, yes you are correct.
Tolerance for differences may have.
CNN reported that Roof bought the gun
I know, early reports were that he received it as a gift. We still don’t know exactly. Maybe his father was with him at the gun store when he bought it. Maybe the 21 year old passed the federal background check.
There are 2 ways to answer “yes” to the original question. Personally, I think nothing can change what has happened. A stricter form of gun control may not have kept Roof from obtaining a gun. No matter how strict the gun control laws are, it may become difficult, but still will not be impossible for a “bad guy” to get a gun. So making it harder still might not prevent events like this.
The flip side, it is actually put out there that if more people had guns this type of event could be stopped. I dont know which of the victims would have or should have been carrying a gun in that Church, and he who shoots first has a big advantage over someone with a holstered weapon. You can fantasize all you want. In my fantasy, the murderer kills his victims whether they are packing or not, so there are no laws that can change what already happened.
Who knows about this particular one but limiting access to guns will reduce gun crime so I see nothing but positive coming out of restrictions. Would be helpful if there were a stigma associated with gun ownership.
Another isolated, unconnected kid who fell between the cracks…
Supposedly, he was from a middle class family…where were they when he dropped out of school, became increasingly disconnected from the community?
His path to the tragic event started several years before.
Anyone who thinks that the people in that church should have been carrying guns (including the 87-year old woman, apparently) seems to forget what the police often do even to unarmed black people. If the police had gotten a report about “black people with guns” in a church? A lot of them might have ended up dead anyway. I hate to sound that cynical, but I can’t help thinking that.
I wonder if the police are going to have to start guarding black churches, or the churches are all going to have to start hiring armed security guards (if they can afford them), just like most synagogues in Western Europe – and in the USA, on certain holidays – are always guarded.
It is best to compare Charleston with some other community(s).
I only speak for my community, but I am sure the 9 deceased people would have been happy to be given this choice, if they knew what would happen to them.
Here are two scenarios, and the current laws in each community clearly allow one event to occur and the other not to occur.
Scenario 1
- Given the news reports, Roof starting talking and spewing his vile BEFORE he started shooting. And he brandished the gun for people to see. He terrorized the people before he shot them. It was not as if he was stealthy and just starting shooting.
- It is against the law already in SC to carry a gun into a church - at least, it is in Charleston (This is from the news reports)
- Given the current law, the law-abiding citizens in the church were voluntarily unarmed. Fine, they are just following the gun control law in their community.
- Roof, a criminal in the making, did not care about the law and took the gun illegally into the church where he had his way, and no one was able to do a darn thing to him in return.
This is one effect of a gun control law. This just shows that the gun control law that guns could not be carried in the church only affects people who listen, not the people who kill. Fine, if that is what people want. Nothing new here, simply logical, as criminals do not care about gun control laws.
Scenario 2
- Take my church on any given day. And place Roof in it the same way and let him stand up and do the exact same speech before shooting etc.
- It is not against the law to conceal carry in my community, including in church.
- Given the current law in my community, at least 5 to 10 people would have concealed firearms, maybe more. At least 10% would.
- Roof, a criminal in the making, would have been lucky to get off two shots before he was dropped himself. Realistically, given the fact that he talked and terrorized before-hand and showed his gun in threatening manner and said he would kill people, he probably would not have gotten off one shot before he was taken out. As soon as he raised it to shoot the first person, someone who have shot him first.
This different outcome is also an effect of gun control laws. Our community decided that disarming and putting a bullseye on our backs for a crazo is not a smart or effective way to defend our families. Therefore, when voting on gun control legislation, we nixed the similar provision that led to the people in SC church to voluntarily disarm (this assumes the news is correct about no guns in church).
All laws have consequences, but when it comes to life and liberty, there are communities, which draw the line and stop others from telling them how to defend life and family. For those who choose to be dependent on others for their life and safety that is your choice. There are those who actively choose not to be statistic like the unfortunate 9 in SC.
@cartera45 - No stigma if Gov. Haley has anything to say about it: She wants EVERYONE in SC to carry a gun. Back in February, she signed the “guns in bars” bill (because gee, what could possibly go wrong?), and for good measure:
Just a fantastic idea, Governor.
ETA –http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20140211/PC1603/140219887
I think better control over who can procreate…parenting licenses, would be better. It is sad. This kid didn’t get this way on his own.
@HRSMom we tried a version of that on a small scale here and a large scale in Germany (mass sterilization programs). It didn’t go well.
I agree with increasing stigma. Someone (either here or in the other thread) raised drunk driving as a parallel. Another is smoking. There is significantly increased stigma around these two and rates have plummeted. I see no reason to believe gun ownership won’t follow the same trajectory if tried.
I’m not being flip. It is sad that anyone can have, raise and completely screw up a kid. Of course there is little we can do about it.
@HRSMom - But we could make it much harder for a screwed up kid to get his hands on a gun.
^didn’t his dad buy it for him? It’s very upsetting that someone would do this, especially after sitting with those people for an hour. He had time for their humanity to get to him…and he still did this. Sorry, off topic from gun control…
I vote “No” on controlling who can and cannot have children.
Originally the media said that the gun was a gift, but more recently CNN and others reported that Roof bought the gun himself with his birthday money.
I think we all need to ask ourselves
- Do we know a young male who is failing in school, spending too much time on the computer, unemployed, no friends, spends too much time alone, anti-social, says crazy things, belligerent, weird, uses drugs?
- What can we do to help that kid?
^folks, I was not being serious about parenting licenses!
It worked in Australia - a nation founded by convicts.
Of course, no system is perfect but we have become a nation which glorifies guns and gives lip service to victims of gun violence. I am so sick of hearing all the expressions of horror from everyone after each and every murderous act. Those who refuse to do anything about this national disgrace, just fess up already and admit you care more about your right to have your precious guns then the lives of your fellow citizens. It quite obvious what you care about more.
*Thank you all for so far keeping the thread at a great level of discussion. But for completeness I will repeat what I said on the other thread I originally closed and now reopened.
Like I said, so far so good! Interesting opinions.
@HRSMom - I believe you @ not requiring licenses to procreate, but there are a lot of people who believe that these tragic kids who kill are purely the product of bad parenting, and that that is the only problem which must be solved.