"Would Better Gun Control Have Stopped the SC Killings"

I don’t think making legal guns more expensive would be the answer, I think the real answer is in making the process of getting the guns more rational, having accountability for gun sales through registration, the very things we in fact do with a car. 60% of the guns taken off the streets in big cities were bought legally in a handful of states, and if those guns were no longer available supply and demand would make the price in the black market such that the kind of low level punks who get them now wouldn’t be able to. Unfortunately, the rural, I’m gonna defend myself against the govn’ment, Zombie apocalypse types, rule the day, so in some states you can walk into a gun store, pass a minimal background check, fill up your car with guns, and go up one of the highways of death and dump them in a big city on the black market, no registration, no accountability. When they pull legal guns off the street and track it back to the person who bought it, there is no accountability, guy can shrug and say “must of been stolen”. If registration was part of it, there would be accountability, you have a gun, you register it, and if it goes missing or stolen, you have to report it, it is known as accountability. But somehow the very process we require for cars and boats by federal law doesn’t apply to guns (and don’t give me the second amendment, that only says you have the right to own guns, not that you have to be able to buy what you want, when you want, with absolute freedom, that is bs, no right has no burdens upon it, zero, nada, nilch…only outright bans on all guns are off the table).

We could have regulations with semi automatic hunting weapons, like the AR15, that limit the fire rate, the size of the magazine, and how easy it is to change it, that would have at the very least changed the dynamics of Newtown and Aurora, but we have too many backyard Rambos and militia types gonna fight the government to have that happen.

There is also an irony, if you look at crime stats, leaving out very rural states with small populations like the Dakotas, Wyoming and Montana, states with lax gun laws are up there on crime, especially violent crime involving guns, states like Florida, Texas, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi and the like are up there in the top states for these kind of crimes, whereas states and cities with restrictive laws are not nearly there (my state, NJ, has ridiculously restrictive laws on guns, but we also have a relatively low violent crime rate, amazing given the density of population we have). Cities with high crime rates, like Baltimore and Chicago, also have a flood of guns on the black market, thanks to surrounding states with lax gun laws that allow legal guns to flow in. My answer about restrictions is if people want them for legitimate means, they should be allowed to own them, but on the other hand if they don’t want accountability for what happens with their guns, then it is obvious they have nefarious reasons, whether they want to be able to sell it to whoever for the highest price and walk away, or they are planning some other stupidity. If someone wants a gun to defend their house, for example, or wants a gun for sports shooting, why object to regulations similar to what we have owning a car? It is a pain in the butt to own a car, you have to have insurance, you have to have a driver’s license (as opposed to guns, where in most places you don’t have to have proof of any kind of training to own one), you have to register the car and renew it, and once you own it, you have accountability for it. We regulate things in cars, you can’t drive a tank on public roads, there are other limits, you can’t buy a race car and drive it on public streets, so why shouldn’t the type of guns be regulated with eyes on safety and such? You can’t buy a fully automatic weapon without a federal gun license legally, so why should people be able to buy semi automatic guns whose fire rate and reload capability is not that of a full automatic, but not slow by any means, we restrict automatics because of the kind of danger they hold, why can’t we regulate semi automatics so they don’t have rapid fire capability?

I personally think the whole having guns to defend oneself is overblown, when things like riots or natural disasters happen, even in Katrina, the reality is that the force of law comes back into play pretty rapidly. After Sandy, with the region crippled, we didn’t have widespread looting or problems with lawlessness, the cops and national guard were in place, and nothing happened in that way (and remember, this is a region with relatively few people owning guns, so that wasn’t the factor). That said, I also think people have the right to own guns, but I also think with that right comes responsibilities that they should have, they should be required to have safety training, they should be required to register the weapons and to have accountability for what happens with them. If a parent lets a kid get access to a loaded gun and the kid goes out and kills someone, the parent should be held responsible for not having the gun secured, the way they would if they left the keys in a car running and the kid drove off in it. This isn’t banning guns, it is mostly simply making sure that the legal purchashers of guns also have responsibility for them, pure and simple, and also making sure that the guns they are buying meet the needs of what they want them for. We don’t allow full automatic weapons for the most part, so we don’t have to allow access to weapons with fire rates that make no sense, the way fully automatic ones don’t.

As far as this one incident, there is no way to no if such laws would have prevented this, but if you take incidents like this as a whole, or gun violence as a whole, there is no doubt reasonable restrictions would prevent some of them, if not a lot of them.

Oh, now you’re just thinking rationally about this. People who perpetrate crimes like this do it in all manner of mindframe.

Better gun control over the course of decades:Yes
Implementing strict gun control now: No

@musicprnt

“I personally think the whole having guns to defend oneself is overblown, when things like riots or natural disasters happen, even in Katrina, the reality is that the force of law comes back into play pretty rapidly.”

I suppose unless you’ve lived through it and it has made an indelible impression on your life, a person just can’t realize how terrifying it is to live in a city that is on fire, with riotiing in the streets, 55 people killed, 2,000 injured in three days and be unable to defend oneself.

The LA riots started on April 29 in the afternoon. Once the violence became known everyone, including my firm, went home. However, with streets packed, traffic did not move. I was stuck on Hollywood Boulevard with looters and window smashers running riot in the streets and all around me. I was lucky to get home safely. It wasn’t until May 2 that the national guard came and lined the major streets, providing safety and security for people to go out and about. Meanwhile we cowered in our homes while 4,000 buildings burned to the ground.

It’s easy to be blase until it happens to you.

“A guy or gal starts talking like that multiple people , including me, would be immediately on guard. Then again, we do not depend on police, so anything out of the ordinary is noticed pronto.”

What a macho fantasy. Yes (pat pat) you’re soooo big and strong and tough you’d take the bad guys down!

@ tatin-

I stand by what I said, that the argument about guns and protecting oneself after natural disasters, riots, etc is overblown. In LA, the rioting after Rodney King was limited to some downtown areas, most people in LA were nowhere near those riots. People died in New Orleans, but most of the problems happened in the 9th Ward, which already was an area with a high crime rate. And how often do those events happen? And if gun ownership is such a deterrent to crime, why is it that gun friendly states often have higher violent crime rates then states with strict ones?

More importantly, given how infrequently things like Katrina happen (which in large part, the looting and violence, was because no one gave a damn about the 9th ward, because it was poor and black, including the government, again I’ll point you to Sandy, that caused immense destruction, and thanks to proper planning and response, nothing happened along the lines you are talking about), the fact that there are 300 million guns in this country says it isn’t just about self defense. More importantly, a lot of those guns are owned by people who have even less concern about things like rioting or looting after a storm, they don’t live in places like LA or New Orleans, so that as a justification for the immense numbers of guns out there makes no logical sense. Some of those guns are used for hunting, for protecting themselves against animals (you don’t live in Alaska in a rural area without guns, or similar places), but the sheer number of guns out there says it is something else. Whether it is the kooks with the militia/anti government crap (which is a joke, good luck to those clowns fighting drones, air to surface missiles, fully automatic weapons and trained soldiers, their AR15s and AK47’s are tinker toys in comparison), or the rambo wannabees or the guys who get off on owning guns as being macho, very little of the guns out there are intended for a very real threat, they are simply manifestations of the idea that guns somehow intrinsically are something you should have, that somehow it is the wild west out there or that having a gun makes you ‘a real american’. I am outspoken in the right to people owning guns, I am all for the right to rational gun ownership, but let’s also have the argument on reality of life in this country for most people, not based on threats that have been way overblown in allowing all kinds of weapons, much of it overkill,to feed some weird fantasies of the new world order and the black helicopters and the zombie apocalypse.

BTW, I am not speaking as someone who has led their life living in nice, safe, cushy places (I am living in one now, where the only time I want a gun is in dealing with obnoxious squirrels ). I lived in some sketchy areas in NYC at a time when the murder rate was 2500 a year, I worked nights for part of that and was coming home from work at 2am on the subway going through the South Bronx, one of the epicenters of the murder rate fueled by crack, and I was living in NYC when Crown Heights erupted (and yep, our dear government decided to ‘let them vent off steam’, really brilliant), so I am not unfamiliar with dangerous situations and such. The other thing to keep in mind is if you are in the middle of rioting and looting, you being armed may not mean a damn thing, those people rioting or looting probably have guns, and many of them would think nothing of shooting you if you pulled a gun, whereas you likely would hesitate. I got to know more than a few cops over the years in NYC, and cops will tell you that in cases where people have armed themselves, that often they end up as a victim, that either the other guy shot them first or took their gun, cause the bad guys don’t hesitate. Doesn’t mean I don’t think you or anyone else has the right to arm yourself, just means I think in the end it may not do what you think it will, tv and movies love the citizen who arms himself and shoots the bad guys, the granny with a gun who blows away the bad guy, you name it, and most of it is creative fiction IMO more than reality.

Unless NJ has some uniquely effective means of stopping illegal guns from crossing their borders, demographics is the likeliest answer. To all of it.

If you want to eliminate the shootings that make national news, don’t let a well publicized by now type near a firearm.

OTOH, if you want to drop the US homicide by gun rate down, and more in line with those European nations we’re all embarrassed not to be just like, you’ll have to go after another demographic.

I wholeheartedly agree that strict accountability should be an intrinsic part of gun ownership, as it is with that other potentially deadly machine, a car. No one should be able to own a firearm without having it registered in their name. And just as one can’t legally drive without a license (which can only be issued after one passes a test showing minimal proficiency in operational safety and knowledge of the rules of the road), one should have to pass a gun safety course, as well as demonstrate the ability to operate the gun with minimal safety and proficiency. The transfer of ownership of a firearm should be as regulated as that of a car as well, and all lost and stolen firearms should have to be reported as such as soon as the loss is known. If an accidental death or a crime is committed due to provable negligence on the part of the gun owner, they should be held legally liable, criminally, financially, or both.

The loopholes that allow for the buying and trafficing of guns should be sewn tightly shut, with all sales, including those through the Internet and at gun shows, strictly regulated.

Why is unfettered access to firearms a right so sacrosanct to many of the same people who would restrict the right to mouth off at law enforcement? Is freedom of speech less sacred?

^Nothing is more important to them then their guns.

There answer to all your points from the gun lovers would be, “shall not be infringed.”

127 That all sounds good, but would it have stopped Roof? Or Sandy Hook or the others? Not from the facts I'm aware of.

Bay, I believe it will definitely take time for changes such as this to have the impact of dramatically reduced gun violence, but just because it won’t immediately stop all such instances doesn’t mean we should throw up our hands and feign helplessness. What needs to change is the space between our collective ears, the attitudes we hold in this country about guns themselves. I think that’s the difference between us and the citizens of most other developed countries.

NBC News reads out some of the racist junk from the killer’s website and then talk to one of his good friends, an African-American kid. What the heck? How do you announce you’re going to kill black people to your black friend (who said, btw, he didn’t believe him)?

I’m not sure what the currently trendy term is for those suffering mental health issues, but someone else is welcome to throw it at Roof.

Cradle to grave responsibility, as far as a lawyers are concerned. Ignoring the fact it isn’t the gun that decides what it’s going to shoot at, why don’t we require the same kind of commitment from parents? Kids don’t just pop out of thin air and raise themselves, yet they tend to grow up and do the most horrendous things.

Making a difference would be a little more meaningful if a net difference was made. Not one of these "we avoided .3% of mental health shootings by taking a wee on the rights of everyone who doesn’t believe as we do.

How much more frequently would it have to happen, then, to become unacceptable? I’m interested in a number. At what point would gun massacres become a problem in your view?

^What in the world are you talking about? As usual, you have imputed something to my comment that I did not say. I was responding to Emilybee’s assertion that “we” put guns on a pedestal and give them to anyone with a pulse. I disagreed. Despite her perverse worldview, I have never seen a single person brandish a gun, worship a gun, or misuse a gun, even though 1 out of every 3 people in the US is a gun owner. And I have lived in several major cities over several decades. The mass killings are actually quite rare, when you look at the number of gun owners, but none are acceptable. What a ridiculous question.

We are a country of tribes. The United States is not going to do much as far as gun control is concerned.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2015/06/charleston-and-public-policy

If none are acceptable, and yet they keep happening, what should be done?

Ayup, dstark. Nothing is more important, nothing, then the 2nd Amendment to the gun lovers. There will never be too many mass shootings for them to change. It is THE issue they vote on and their elected officials know it.

I think there is a big element of culture & copycatism. Switzerland has a high gun ownership percentage, but doesn’t have these mass shootings.

It’s very difficult to extrapolate things like this across societal and cultural borders.