It has nothing to do w the likelihood of new evidence surfacing. People get held in jail immediately if they are deemed to be a threat to public safety (armed robbery or guy who beat up his wife) , or a flight risk (white collar criminal suspected of embezzling $20 million).
Why does the possibility of a false rape accusation trouble you so much that you’ve broken a tooth and dropped out of school? It would seem to me that if you restricted your dalliances to women that you were in an actual, real relationship with, and were sensitive to their needs / desires, the risk of a false rape accusation is pretty darn close to zero.
Are you a member of the MRM / “red pill” type movements by any chance?
@Pizzagirl
The Men’s Rights Movement is a diverse group. There are some misogynists as well as many who just want equality. I am pro-choice on the abortion issue and value women’s rights just as much as men’s rights. Both are lacking in this country.
Suppose 99% of women would never lie about rape, but 1% would if a man annoyed them. Suppose 1% of men rape 5% of women, and 1 out of 10, 0.5% report it. Suppose of the 1% who would lie, half do each year, 0.5%. That would mean 1% (0.5%+0.5%) of young women report a rape each year. These numbers are very believable. But if 0.5% are true and 0.5% are false, that means half are false. So it is very possible and likely that even though 99% of women would never lie about rape, half of rape accusations are false. See how that works? Indeed, the preponderance of evidenance standard says it is OK to find someone responsible if there is a 49% chance they are innocent.
I said that if after hearing a man’s and woman’s story, the woman’s sounds believable, give her the benefit of him having 2-7 days in jail, privately, with work release, longer if it is it is not his first accusation. We almost never know someone is guilty of any crime, and have convicted people of murder without knowing. 2 days is nothing by comparison. It is not true we are just locking up an innocent person, but rather someone with a 50% chance of guilt. I’m asking for this in leiu of ruining his life with an expulsion, which is far worse than just 2 days in a scary cell. When guilt is unknown, we should aim for a penalty that merely deters rather than achieves justice. Laws can be changed to keep the jail time private.
I’m going to say this one more time and then I’m done with you.
You cannot lock people up without trial. Period.
And I’m going to say again that jails are not hotels to be used by the public to check in and out as they please. There is NO private way to serve a jail sentence, and you do not just check into a jail to serve a non-sentence without being either convicted or pleading. You do not get to set your own sentence and your victim does not get to set the sentence either. A judge sets it according to laws and sentencing guidelines.
I worked for a judge who often set a one day sentence. Why? Because that first day is the worst. You are processed, maybe strip searched, made to eat on the jail schedule which is often 6 am, 10 am, and 3 pm. You don’t know anyone, you are scared. The jailors hated the sentence, but the judge wanted the person to think that every day in jail was like that first one. Not a day at the youth hostel, but a horrible horrible very bad day.
People are already locked up without trial, every day. Police do it all the time and can hold people 48 hours without charging them. If they charge you, they can hold you 6 years without a trial. This has happened many times. I knew a guy who waited a year for a trial, though at home, but it prevented him from getting a job.
Have you heard of the Violence Against Women’s Act? It is a federal law that pays money to states that agree to lock up people accused of sexual or domestic violence if there is probable cause it occurred. They do, and they hold them up to 6 months before trial even if the “victim” denies it happened.
If you disagree with my mild proposal, I’m surprised you are not protesting the much stricter laws already on the books.
You made up your own stats and then you tried to use them as if they were facts. I don’t think you get to do that.
“Mild proposal” :)) :)) :))
What a card. Acting as dictator of people’s lives and freedom is not mild in any sense of the word. You UPPED it from fines to jail time.
Have you heard about that little thing in the constitution called the right to a speedy trial?
People being held longer are waiving a right to an immediate trial. Six months, not six years.
Those statistics are not made up. Google them. The 1 in 4 quote by feminists says 6% of college freshmen are raped, which I made 5% for easy math. They also say 1 in 10 reports it. All those numbers are published. I just combined them to show it could easily be 50% who are innocent.
You are naiive. Courts have ruled that a right to a speedy trail is almost meaningless and just means they don’t blatantly slow it down unnecessarily. If there are procedures that need to be followed, it can take as long as it takes.
@bodangles
You of all people have no place attacking my policy from the right, when you clearly are happen with men being expelled just on a woman’s word. Why not be honest and attack it from the left?
And for the record, Title 9 does not mandate that students be expelled. It only mandates that the college take “effective” action to end the hostile situation. The expulsions are part of a different movement unrelated to Title 9, the movement to strike fear into male students so that the rapists will be afraid to rape. They want to expel the innocent so the rapists will know they won’t get away either. Disgusting.
The policy would not be so bad were it not for how life altering it can be. Instead of “finding them responsible”, they should say they don’t know and are taking pragmatic action. That would be far less emotionally damaging to the accused and scare the guilty almost as much.
This is incomprehensible. What?
@bodangles
Attacking from the left would mean you support a law that makes it harder for the accused to prove innocence. In the other thread, you said a guy is guilty of sexual assault if he ever touches his partner without first asking for permission, even though you admitted you and your boyfriend don’t ask each other. Yet when I propose an option that does not ruin his life as much as an expulsion, you attack from the right, saying innocent people should not be punished. Your stances contradict each other. Why not be honest and say which side you are on and stick to it?
My stance is that you have not even a working knowledge of consent, fairness, statistics, the law, or how the world operates. This is consistent throughout my posts: nothing you say makes any sense whatsoever.
In this thread you are talking about rape accusations. I have never been raped nor had reason to accuse someone of it, so the prior thread’s topic, which delved more into consent, is a bit less relevant now. I do recall that you asked if I considered my boyfriend of over two and a half years a rapist. THAT is the quality of critical thinking we are dealing with here.
Nowhere did I suggest a solution to replace yours, so I am not sure how you know whether I am approaching the issue from the left, right, up, down, diagonal, or anything else.
I will summarize my views for you, since you don’t seem to understand them:
- If you have just met someone or haven’t known them very long, you need to get consent and stop if asked. If they are unconscious or in a mind-altered state you need to stop, period.
- If you have been in a relationship for a long time and both of you agree that consent can be considered given for certain things, go ahead, use that shorthand. Or do the cautious thing and still actively get consent for everything. And still stop if asked. This is the key point for me. I would be willing to forgive a misstep if I said no and they stopped immediately with apologies. Continuing on is rape. That is why my boyfriend is not a rapist (thank you very much).
- Fining innocent people is ridiculous.
- Jailing innocent people is ridiculous.
- Hurting yourself because you’re afraid of being falsely accused of rape is ridiculous.
- Dropping out of school because you’re afraid of being falsely accused of rape is ridiculous.
- Being afraid of being falsely accused of rape and yet lobbying for jail time for yourself if that were to happen is ridiculous, and nonsensical, and I really don’t understand how you don’t see that hypocrisy.
The fact is that if someone is a rapist, they shouldn’t be allowed to serve time “privately.” They should have to register as a sex offender and all the other jazz in punishment for their crime. Their crime should go on their record - how would it in your plan, since innocent men and rapists are treated the same?
If women are really as scheming as you think we are, then all we would have to do to lock an innocent man up for a long time under your plan is get a bunch of girlfriends to spend time alone with a guy then claim rape in succession. I don’t see how that helps protect innocent men at all.
It is unethical and sickening to suggest that people be jailed without due process. That doesn’t mean the law is perfect or that they are right all the time, but in most cases justice is striven for.
“My stance is that you have not even a working knowledge of consent, fairness, statistics, the law, or how the world operates. This is consistent throughout my posts: nothing you say makes any sense whatsoever.”
Or a working knowledge of how to read people’s (women’s) feelings. Absent a psychopath woman, it just isn’t all that hard for a (non-drunk) guy to figure out what is welcome and what isn’t.
In the vein of a Modest Proposal?
Bodangles,
Most of what you said was non-specific put downs that ignore what I wrote.
According to most school policies, you boyfriend is a rapist if you choose to accuse him. My school makes no statement of how being in a relationship matters.
I never said or though that women are scheming. I Saud 1% are willing to false accuse given the chance and a petty reason to be upset.
You all keep saying a guy is guilty or innocent. The fact is we rarely know if someone is guilty or innocent and must do it not do something.
College campuses currently expel men just on the word of the accuser, claiming preponderance if he can’t prove innocence. Never have any of you spoken against that. That proves you are for it. Why do you think expulsion and transcript marking are ok, but a short jail stay is not.
This is just beyond silly…just stop. If do not understand “due process” and it’s place in our legal system, then do just stop talking.