Would you hire someone without a bachelor's degree to a job where people typically have them?

^^ Ture that, but the scenario was predicated on the oversupply of BA/BS degree holders, but anyone, degreed or not, will usually move to greener pastures.

There’s a world of difference between being self-taught and requiring a college level education.

What I cited above was that training in fields like medicine, law, and engineering not too long ago could be obtained and was considered perfectly fine via apprenticeships or higher vocational training institutes one enters from middle-school or the latter half of HS(Britain’s former Polytechnics).

Incidentally, neither of the Wright Brothers who INVENTED the first viable airplane attended university…or even graduated high school. One dropped out in his junior year and both learned their craft through on the job training and experimentation.

Many centuries old solid bridges/buildings/fortifications built in the medieval and older periods were built by engineers without a university education…or the equivalent in their respective time periods.

Also, in some countries…including some advanced industrialized first world countries…certain fields like accounting were until very recently(talking last 10-20 years) commonly/could only be studied at higher vocational schools…NOT colleges/universities.

@cobrat- What may have been adequate a century ago or more isn’t today. Yes, there are centuries old buildings designed before the era of university engineering education that are still around. So what? There were also many more that aren’t standing today that were improperly designed before the principles of structural engineering and strength of materials became quantitative sciences.

In the mid-19th century bridges in America had a failure rate of some 30-40%. Many lives were lost annually. It became clear that some form of determining who was competent to design bridges and qualification process was needed, which led to the first P.E. licensing in the US (Wyoming, 1839), The engineering licensing boards of the day realized the need for proper and formal training of engineers to do this work as well. A few states, unfortunately, still allow licensure by apprenticeship prior to sitting for the exam- an archaic historical practice hopefully will eventually be discontinued.

There were viable airplanes - mostly gliders- before the Wright Brothers. They of course managed to fly a powered airplane for an extended period of time. True, they learned a lot by trial and error, however, modern aviation simply would not have been possible without the formal aerodynamic and aeronautical engineering science later pioneered by von Karman, von Mises, (prevously by) Bernouilli, and many others. Orville Wright was serously injured in a crash resulting from stalling the aircraft in a steep turn at an insufficient airspeed (i.e. an accelerated stall). Perhaps had he had some formal training in physics he might have been able to visualize the effect of high load on the wings and low speed on lift production (actually, Bernouill’s and Navier-Stokes equations were known at that time) he could have avoided that accident.

The degree provides the analytical tools, the theoretical foundation, and practical hands-on experience (all ABET accredited engineering schools must include design work in the curriculum, and most all have fourth year capstone design projects). A physician must learn human anatomy and effect of drugs before doing surgery or prescribing medications. An attorney must learn the foundations of criminal law before he/she can defend an accused person. Same for an engineer.

It has been my experience that those who claim they can “be an engineer” without an engineering degree do not posess the desire, ability, and perserverence to earn one.

@Engineer80

You’re wasting your breath. Cobrat has an odd habit of bringing up events from 100+ years ago, as if they could possibly be relevant to today.

The original question was not really about engineering or any situation where a needed licence requires a degree.

The original question was would one one hire someone without a bachelor’s degree. The subject then turned to specifics of engineering and software.

And yet, the vast majority of engineering graduates don’t end up passing the PE licensing exam or opt to not bother taking the second part despite passing the first part because their engineering/tech jobs don’t require it.

This is one reason why an uncle is still getting bombarded with calls to consult as a PE even after being officially retired for 2 decades after a several decades long career as a PE.

As for attorneys…many experienced attorneys I’ve worked with/know feel most of the relevant foundational laws needed to start practicing were covered in 1L(first year of law school) and feel our current system of 3 years is too long considering most students undertake it after 4 years of US undergrad.

Ironically, the UK which employs the same legal system as ours(not too surprising considering we adapted it from them 200+ years ago), the 3 year law course is intended for those pursuing it straight from HS.

One alternative path many who didn’t select law as an undergrad major initially could take to become licensed solicitors/barristers is to take a one year conversion course after one’s undergrad and if they qualify to get internships like the law majors* and if they passed muster, start practicing law after graduating from that conversion year and getting one’s license.

  • Not all UK law majors qualify to get internships if their academic performance/interview isn't up to standard.

UK doesn’t require one to take unrelated liberal arts courses for most undergrad professional majors. Law and medical school there usually starts right out of high school as you point out. The medical course I believe is 6 years out of high school or 4 years (as it is here) for people who already have a bachelor’s degree. According to Oxford University’s website for example the 6 year course results in both BA and BM Ch (bachelor in medicine/surgery, which is their equivalent of MD in the US).

A large part of that is because in the UK and many other international educational systems, those courses were usually covered in high school or sometimes even in middle school.

There’s some variations. Some Uk/European med schools can be as little as 5 years if one starts out from HS.

One thing I wished the US would consider adopting is conversion courses like the UK’s one year law conversion course for those who didn’t major in law straight out from HS.

So even for late starters…one only spends 3 years undergrad in unrelated major + 1 year in the law conversion course. And most who took this alternative path end up being successful attorneys. Just read somewhere that around half the practicing attorneys in the UK became such through this alternative program.

The US loves credential and title inflation. While a degree is essential in many fields, credential inflation is plain silly. In many European nations the title “Doctor” is reserved for those who did original research and published new knowledge in their fields- as it was historically starting in the medieval universities- (that is, Ph.D.) not for trades or vocational subjects (hence the “bachelor” nomenclature for medicine, law, dentistry, et al).