WSJ:Grads With Technical Majors Earn More Than Those with Liberal Arts Degrees

[loveday2]

<p>

So where are the non-grad-school liberal arts grads who don’t take over the family business? I’m sure they are out there and I just don’t realize it.

Well, hope you realized I was teasing. I’m inherently reticent to cite personal examples, but here goes…</p>

<p>Our recent liberal arts grad (dbl mjr in poli sci and global studies) is on the east coast (literally, living at the beach) working in a federal agency. He was, actually, headed to grad school in public policy, with a strong, though not exclusive, interest in environmental policy. However, when this opportunity came along, he decided to delay grad school.</p>

<p>He’s self-supporting, loves his work and is gaining valuable career and life experience in the bargain. He recently decided to take a pay cut to accept a paid management internship under a director at another federal agency (west coast) where he interned one summer during undergrad. He still plans to pursue grad school at some point, but I expect what he’ll study remains to be seen. He’s discovering for himself that public policy is a broader field with more opportunities than he’d realized, as are the graduate studies associated with it. My crystal ball currently predicts his career/ life path will include positions in both the public and private sectors, perhaps in more than one spot on the globe. Note: that’s the word from the crystal ball. We’ll see… :-)</p>

<p>I think a couple of points are significant: 1) We didn’t have to incur debt for his education; 2) His summer & spring break internships & activities opened these post grad opportunities. </p>

<p>When you’re forced to incur debt to finance an education, future earnings become a more important factor in the equation. Whether you’re investing in stock or investing in an education, investing with borrowed funds alters the analysis. The soaring costs of higher ed aren’t just impacting who gets an education, but also why they’re getting that education and what type of education they’re pursuing.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

What do you do with a DS with very good academic and work accomplishments but is working half-time/half-pay and spending the remainder on hobbies in art and outdoors?

</p>

<p>A friend of mine is a William & Mary grad who initially went into a business career because she thought she should … and later dropped out of the corporate rat race and has worked for the National Park Service and now grooms ski trails and does other things related to her love of outdoor adventure. What’s the problem? She’s self-sufficient, and based on our mutual Facebook friend postings, most of us are insanely jealous that she gets to enjoy the beautiful outdoors at a level we all don’t.</p>

[Dad_o_2]

<p>

Well, hope you realized I was teasing.

</p>

<p>We Spock types don’t understand the concept of teasing. It is not logical.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

I work in an engineering environment, which is mostly engineers with a few physicists and mathemeticians thrown in the mix. I also know people with post-graduate degrees–doctors, dentists, lawyers, and a few PhDs. I know teachers, nurses, accountants–usually with non-liberal-arts “preprofessional” degrees. I know people without a college eduction–mechanics, retail salespeople, restaurant workers, drug dealers (kidding!). </p>

<p>So where are the non-grad-school liberal arts grads who don’t take over the family business? I’m sure they are out there and I just don’t realize it.

</p>

<p>Was this a joke? The only kind of “business” you can conceive of is engineering?</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

lease elaborate–I’m genuinely interested, as my circle of acquaintances is pretty skewed. What do people do when they graduate with a non-engineering degree if they don’t go to grad school? A couple of years ago, I asked for real-life examples of career paths that people had undergone with an undergraduate liberal arts degree.

</p>

<p>Drive down your street. Or if you don’t want to do that, open your phone book. See all the different businesses listed? See all the different services listed? People actually work at all of these things and make money doing so!</p>

[Dad_o_2]

<p>

Drive down your street. Or if you don’t want to do that, open your phone book. See all the different businesses listed? See all the different services listed? People actually work at all of these things and make money doing so!

</p>

<p>That’s my problem! When I drive down the road I see pizza shops, donut shops, Best Buy, Starbucks, gas stations, barber shops, banks, restaurants, drug stores, delis, a craft store, liquor stores, a book store, and a storefront psychic! When I occassionally pull out the phone book, I’m looking to get my car fixed or buy a light fixture. These aren’t the places where I picture my kids or my neighbor’s kids working after spending four years prostrate to the higher mind. </p>

<p>Maybe it is, though. The 2009 post-graduation employment report from my D’s $50K/year LAC includes such troublesome listings as waitress, waiter, server, hostess, receptionist, file clerk, office clerk, switchboard operator, sales associate, nanny, au pair, child care worker, swim instructor, and professional dog trainer. (Granted, these are the exceptions, not the rule.)</p>

<p>From the other replies, I also see:</p>

<p>“they go into some generic “management” field, like many other LA majors. Sales, HR, non-profits”
“journalism,… advertising/marketing/market research,… K-12 teaching”
“financial services,… consulting,… education”
“federal agencies,… non-profits”</p>

<p>which I hope are more typical than waitress, file clerk, nanny, dog trainer…</p>

[Brooklynborndad]

<p>"When I occassionally pull out the phone book, I’m looking to get my car fixed or buy a light fixture. "</p>

<p>But where do you look when you need a report on poverty in Africa? “let your fingers to the walking”</p>

[achat]

<p>This is the silliest thread to date on CC. Not everyone is destined for Science/Math or a vocational path. Why are we discussing this forever?</p>

<p>From what I remember about ‘courier’ who started this thread, he is a scientist with 2 daughters, one who went to Harvard and another to Dartmouth. Both institutions provide a great liberal arts education even if your major is in Science.</p>

<p>And since when is earning $72,000 a year entry level an indicator that you are a “success” in life?</p>

[achat]

<p>I am a engineering major and I am a programmer/analyst (well, I have moved up the ranks but that is how I view myself, a programmer/analyst). I have had to CONSTANTLY retool myself. People here who are engineers and scientists (and claim they have never met anyone who are LA majors - and wow! what incredibly narrow lives they seem to live) are plain wrong. I can’t even begin to say how many times I have had to retool myself to keep myself employed and to be competitive.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

That’s my problem! When I drive down the road I see pizza shops, donut shops, Best Buy, Starbucks, gas stations, barber shops, banks, restaurants, drug stores, delis, a craft store, liquor stores, a book store, and a storefront psychic! When I occassionally pull out the phone book, I’m looking to get my car fixed or buy a light fixture. These aren’t the places where I picture my kids or my neighbor’s kids working after spending four years prostrate to the higher mind.

</p>

<p>You don’t think there is a whole support / infrastructure behind these businesses? Forget the storefront psychic for now :-). </p>

<p>You don’t think there’s an entire corporate headquarters behind (say) the Starbucks, the Best Buy, the Barnes & Noble that offers some good jobs? What about the food-supply companies that supply the baked goods to the Starbucks or the local restaurants? Or the entire publishing industry that backs up the B&N or the local independent bookstore? Think about the drug stores – you don’t think that being an executive at Walgreen’s isn’t a pretty decent and well-paying job? Think about all the pharmaceuticals, health and beauty care products that line the shelves of your pharmacy – where did they all come from? </p>

<p>And are you forgetting about the physical infrastructure? The companies who supply the packaging, the industrial equipment, the lighting design, etc. to these companies?</p>

<p>I don’t know what kind of engineer you are, but you engineer something that is put to use by people who aren’t engineers – right? And they pay your firm X for those products because they then use those products as part of their infrastructure to make money for themselves. So, I don’t know, it just seems a little arrogant on your part to think that only engineers have “good” jobs or that there’s no place for anyone else other than flipping burgers. There’s a whole wide world of occupations out there, not just engineers plus burger-flipping.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

Maybe it is, though. The 2009 post-graduation employment report from my D’s $50K/year LAC includes such troublesome listings as waitress, waiter, server, hostess, receptionist, file clerk, office clerk, switchboard operator, sales associate, nanny, au pair, child care worker, swim instructor, and professional dog trainer. (Granted, these are the exceptions, not the rule.)

</p>

<p>What’s wrong with being a nanny / au pair? Would it be different if it had the label “elementary education teacher” on it? </p>

<p>And I think it’s a bit amusing how much colleges value athletes in recruiting – but then going and being a professional swim instructor (or other athletic instructor) would be a frowned-upon job. I have an acquaintance from Northwestern who wound up becoming a baseball coach and owning a baseball related store where he sold supplies and taught individual players skills. He loves what he does; he wasn’t going to make it in the majors, but he does what he loves every day. How is that failure? </p>

<p>

they go into some generic “management” field, like many other LA majors. Sales, HR, non-profits

</p>

<p>What’s so generic about these things? Sales, human resources, marketing, market research, etc. all require skills and aptitude exactly the same way that civil engineering vs chemical engineering vs industrial engineering do.</p>

[dmd77]

<p>Hey, I bet the storefront psychic is making pretty good money.</p>

<p>If you drove down the street where our business is, you’d see a small bike shop. What you wouldn’t see if the internet businesses we run out of the back of the shop. We employ five full-time programmers.</p>

[Brooklynborndad]

<p>"What’s so generic about these things? Sales, human resources, marketing, market research, etc. all require skills and aptitude exactly the same way that civil engineering vs chemical engineering vs industrial engineering do. "</p>

<p>I beleive I originally posted that, before dado quoted me, somewhat altering the tone. I guess I meant fields that require a generic university degree, but not necessarily any particular degree (I would exclude market research, which is a bit more, pardon me, technical). There are of course people who get degrees in marketing, and in Human resources management. There are also folks who get business degrees with an emphasis on the marketing or HR. There are also folks who get psych degrees and consider them particularly good for HR or marketing. There are folks who get business degrees with no speciality, or a specialty other than marketing or HR, who go into those fields. And there are, IIUC, lots and lots and lots of folks who have a degree in absolutely unrelated fields, including all the liberal arts, who get jobs in those fields (perhaps less so for HR than for marketing, and I am pretty sure more for sales than for marketing) Those fields certainly require skills and aptitudes - certainly someone without an aptitude for sales would be better off not pursuing that career. My point was only that for someone with the basic aptitudes, what ones major is in college is generally more loosely related to the skills needed, than some other fields - and not just for engineering fields, but for many areas in the liberal arts where career and college major line up somewhat more closely. Note I was speaking specifically of anthro, and specifically of a discussion I had with DD about what people with anthro degrees could do for a living. I quoted it here as I thought it might respond to the questions. I certainly did not mean it to reinforce claims that any particular field of study or work was “the one true path” - I tend to disagree with those claims in general. I beleive each youngster is unique, and needs to address their own skills, personality, and aspirations.</p>

<p>I am sorry my sloppy wording led to confusion.</p>

[Brooklynborndad]

<p>“So, I don’t know, it just seems a little arrogant on your part to think that only engineers have “good” jobs or that there’s no place for anyone else other than flipping burgers”</p>

<p>Lets give him the benefit of the doubt and take it as a real question of economic geography. I live in a metro area where you can’t swing a stick (pardon the expression) without hitting ten young people working for NGO’s, think tanks, lobbies, trade associations - a HUGE number of whom are LA grads, including not only poly sci, policy, or econ, but sociology, anthro, history, certainly some humanities grads as well. However there arent many metro areas like this. State capitals probably have them too, but in smaller numbers. We have all heard that lots of LA grads go into finance - while those folks are not all in NYC, they are still heavily there, and lots of the rest are in the next dozen or so major financial centers. Advertising, well at least the big agencies are also concentrated in major metros, IIUC. </p>

<p>I could well imagine that there are small cities where there are few liberal arts without grad degrees who have satisfactory employment. Well other than teachers. And some other categories I am probably overlooking.</p>

[achat]

<p>

Lets give him the benefit of the doubt and take it as a real question of economic geography.

</p>

<p>Why? If supposedly educated people claim that they know no one who is an LA grad and has a “good” job (not flipping burgers), my assumption is, he/she is plain ignorant and lives in a bubble of their own making. All they need to do is read a newspaper or a magazine (obviously, not just the WSJ article mentioned as the thread header).</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

beleive I originally posted that, before dado quoted me, somewhat altering the tone. I guess I meant fields that require a generic university degree, but not necessarily any particular degree (I would exclude market research, which is a bit more, pardon me, technical).

</p>

<p>I’m in market research. There are technical quant-jock sides and non-technical sides to it. I happen to have a degree in economics and mathematics, but many, many in this field have liberal arts degrees, esp in psychology and sociology and communication. You will find all kinds. Intellectual curiosity and knowing how to think are really the hallmarks of a successful market researcher.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

Lets give him the benefit of the doubt and take it as a real question of economic geography. I live in a metro area where you can’t swing a stick (pardon the expression) without hitting ten young people working for NGO’s, think tanks, lobbies, trade associations - a HUGE number of whom are LA grads, including not only poly sci, policy, or econ, but sociology, anthro, history, certainly some humanities grads as well. However there arent many metro areas like this. State capitals probably have them too, but in smaller numbers. We have all heard that lots of LA grads go into finance - while those folks are not all in NYC, they are still heavily there, and lots of the rest are in the next dozen or so major financial centers. Advertising, well at least the big agencies are also concentrated in major metros, IIUC.

</p>

<p>It’s almost as though some people think that all the state university graduates who aren’t in business or engineering just disappear into the netherworld, never to be heard from again! Gosh, even in small towns there are job opportunities for people who need to think. Even people in Des Moines, Iowa need sophisticated people to do their advertising, manage their finances, help them think strategically. I swear, I think some people on here think that anything not NY/DC has no job opportunities other than pitching hay!</p>

[RacinReaver]

<p>I think it’s more of wondering why you need a four year degree in something to go into a fairly generic/unrelated field. (I also think the tech/engineering people you talk about at first aren’t the ones looking for NYC and DC jobs.)</p>

[DocT]

<p>The kids who graduated with my daughter all got fantastic jobs on Wall St. and they’re liberal arts majors. Her boyfriend from several years back was a poli - sci major got an analyst job with Morgan Stanley.</p>

[mini]

<p>"“Technical degrees are valued in all fields. I’ve a seen a [company] communications department actually prefer that someone have an engineering degree rather than a communications degree,” she said.</p>

<p>When did communications become a liberal arts degree???</p>

<p>“I’m in market research. There are technical quant-jock sides and non-technical sides to it. I happen to have a degree in economics and mathematics, but many, many in this field have liberal arts degrees, esp in psychology and sociology and communication/.”</p>

<p>When did economics and mathematics stop being liberal arts degrees???</p>

<p>I was an English major. I have taught Shakespeare abroad, been the media relations director of a major human rights agency, a community college teacher, founded a very, very successful publishing house, founded three non-profit foundations, and been a senior planner and policy analyst in state government, write two magazine columns, and have published 11 books (and edited more than a hundred.)</p>

<p>And never became wealthy. But my life has been very, very rich.</p>