NEU is known for doing everything they can to manipulate and increase their rankings.
6 Likes
Never mind - misread!
I heard last yearâsecond hand via my nieceâthat NEU suggested not submitting unless one was at or above the 75th percentile. This was while they were doing the hard sell on converting RD app to EDII.
1 Like
Someone said that on the cds that 88 percent of people submitted a score. Maybe this was why I got deferred ea?
That is indeed one of many possible explanations.
2 Likes
Test scores are definitely back in a big way. Last year, my sonâs prep school recommended only submitting scores if they were perfect. This year, they are not so sure.
This year the schools are still âtest optionalâ but your application might not be considered without a score. Last year, a student at my sonâs school got into Harvard at the last minute without a score. A top student applied EA to Harvard this year without a score and was quickly rejected â not even waitlisted. Based on the deanâs comments in the podcast, Yale is technically TO but youâve gotta have crazy circumstances to get admitted without a score.
It does depend on the school though, some schools are still really TO. I know one talented student who was admitted ED to Northwestern without a score.
It is interesting that the Yale dean says that scores are just as important as transcripts, which reveals that Yale isnât being exactly truthful in section C7 of their CDS. Of course Yale also says in this section that legacy status is not very important to them, which is kind of funny.
1 Like
I wish I knew this when I applied EA.
This is a tremendous downside of where things are right now with test optional at many schools. Students, parents, counselors often just donât know what to do, nor do they have full information to help make decisions. A couple of Yale AOs talking on a podcast is still not being transparent IMO, especially when you are talking about getting full information out to relatively disadvantaged students and/or the counselors serving large numbers of students.
Remember also, that most of the posters on this thread donât have direct experience as AOs. Sharing anecdotes of what happened with peopleâs own kids, or classmates, isnât always helpful, nor necessarily indicative of the facts. It can be powerful when people share that these podcasts exist, or they heard X at an admissions session and things of that nature. All you can do is your best on your apps with the info you have on hand.
12 Likes
You and everyone else! The dean of admissions gave that interview the day after EA applications were due.
You should consider yourself very fortunate though, something unique about your circumstance allowed your application to be considered â youâve crossed the entry threshold! The vast majority of folks in your shoes were outright rejected.
As Mwfan1921 points out, this is an incredibly tough time to apply, probably the worst ever. As we emerge from covid, admission criteria to these schools are changing and itâs not in their interests to tell you what the schools care about.
2 Likes
I know we say it all the time, but now more than everâit just doesnât pay to have a hyper selective college like Yale as a âdreamâ school. Way, way too many great kids have the same sort of dream, so it is a mathematical certainty most such dreams will be crushed.
I think this helps explain how these colleges can casually provide information âtoo lateâ without thinking it is a big deal (Cornell also announced after its ED deadline that it was planning to admit fewer people in ED this cycle, causing quite the kerfuffle in certain circles). Not to be callous about it, but they knew all along they were going to be crushing dreams left and right in ED/REA/SCEA anyway, so what is a few more?
And no, I donât love any of this, but I also think it is mostly just baked into our system in a way these colleges canât control individually anyway.
5 Likes
I donât recall ANYTHING that any of the âhighly rejectiveâ colleges have put out in the last five years that says, implies, or suggests that scores will not be considered. Having a âTO optionâ for kids who might have had difficulty finding a test center close by (during and after Covid shutdown) is NOT the same as saying âyour scores are irrelevantâ.
I think thereâs been a ton of wishful thinking going on (and in some cases, magical thinking). I donât think itâs either âcasualâ or too late. I think a lot of people lose their ability to apply common sense when itâs time to apply to college.
Of course Yale would prefer to see your academic record corroborated by an independent datapoint. You couldnât find a test center without getting on a plane? Then donât submit. But you have scores and you DECIDE not to submit? Then consider if your application is going to be competitive given the sheer numbers of âperfectâ candidates in the pool.
And âcrushing dreams left and rightâ? Get a grip. A kid who canât handle competition shouldnât be applying to a highly rejective college. This isnât âcrushing dreamsâ, this is mathematics. A 5% acceptance rate equals a 95% rejection rate. If a kid canât do that math⊠well, time to go back to 4th grade.
I usually agree with your posts but I think you are whipping up a frenzy here.
10 Likes
So I think the root cause of the disparity between us is you are describing how applicants SHOULD think about these colleges and their admissions policies, and I entirely agree with you about that question.
I, however, was referring to how many applicants I encounter ACTUALLY view these colleges, despite how they should, summarized by the concept of picking out one of these extremely selective colleges as a âdreamâ school.
And then in fact these colleges crush most of those dreams. Again, that is just a descriptive phrase for what I can actually see happeningâthese kids build up these dreams invested in a single highly selective college, then they are not selected, and then feel really bad, at least for a while.
So this is the old normative (what should be true) versus descriptive (what is actually true) distinction. What should be true is no kid should have a highly selective dream school. What is actually true is at least a lot of kids do, and then most of those dreams are crushed.
OK, so what to do about that discrepancy between the normative and the descriptive?
Well, one option is to tell all those kids to suck it up, go back to 4th grade, or so on. The math was clear, so it was their fault for not feeling the right way.
But personally, I am more sympathetic than that. I think often these kids are under pressure from family and peers and social media and pop culture and so on to think the way they do. I think the whole system of ED/REA/SCEA is encouraging that way of thinking. And so on.
So I wish a lot of that could change so fewer kids would end up feeling this way. I understand they also are partially responsible for what happens, but in the end, these are just kids.
And I guess my natural instinct when seeing a lot of kids going through this sort of avoidable distress is to think we adults should be doing a better job taking care of these kids. But again that is a normative sentiment. Descriptively, we are not doing such a good job, not with these kids.
7 Likes
I donât disagree with you. BUT- you are describing a tiny percentage of the college bound population, and I think itâs helpful to understand the phenomenon you are talking about.
Letâs take New Canaan, CT. Very wealthy suburb in Fairfield County (a wealthy county in the NYC suburban corridor). I have no doubt that the âdreams crushedâ phenomenon exists there. But a few exits up the highway is Bridgeport CT, less affluent, much more diverse in every possible way, where getting a kid to ANY college- selective, non-selective, whatever- is a triumph for the school system.
Should we be tying ourselves in knots to prevent the highly privileged children of New Canaan from feeling bad for a week or two when their dreams of Yale or Dartmouth are âcrushedâ (which I think is overstating their disappointment but whatever) or should be we making a good faith effort to care about the MANY more numerous kids in places like Bridgeport (they exist in every state) who may not be able to attend college at all? Not because they are dumb and lazy, but because their options are nowhere near as robust as their more affluent peers?
Iâm sure we should do both. But it gets exhausting sometimes when otherwise smart kids canât read the fine print, canât do the arithmetic, believe that their privilege is going to mean never being sad or disappointed about ANYTHING at the age of 17 or 18. And blaming the colleges for the phenomenon-- that gets exhausting as well. There are zero colleges which accept zero students RD. So the solution for a kid who is too stressed out in October to have a favorite college to apply ED? Simple. Apply RD and see how you feel in March.
Are there any kids involved in athletics who believe theyâll actually pitch a no-hitter, never spend time on the bench, or otherwise not achieve their goal of athletic perfection? Of course not. Are there any drama kids who think they will ALWAYS get the lead? Are there any music kids who assume theyâll coast to concertmaster or first chair? No, no and no.
Our kids are MUCH more resilient than we think. They understand that thereâs only one Auntie Mame or Dolly or Harold Hill per production- and if you work hard, youâll actually enjoy being in the chorus. Why do we think we need to shield them from the reality of competitive college admissions???
2 Likes
I personally feel like it is a little more complicated than your post implies. A number of very good schools (mostly California, not entirely though) have moved to test-blind. If you study CDSs, for a lot of test-optional schools the number of students submitting scores is well under 100%. (Stanford shows 49% SAT and 23% ACT for enrolled students, unknown what overlap there is, if any).
That doesnât apply to all schools, of course, but I think it does muddy the waters for applicants who just see and hear about the broad strokes and donât know the granular details for every school. I donât think anyone is losing their ability to apply common sense when they are faced with such different messages coming from everywhere. Test-blind, test-optional, test-preferred etc. It may seem perfectly obvious to you who should submit where and under what circumstances, but for most of us it is a pretty complicated question., especially when you start digging into the CDS data.
2 Likes
But itâs always been a question of individualized applications- hence the âwhy usâ question, the fact that some colleges have a quirky, âcanât be mass producedâ essay prompt whereas others have no essay at all, the fact that some are need blind vs. need aware; some consider home equity in its entirety and others cap it; some have rolling admissions and others do the big email reveal on a particular day in March.
There has never been a one size fits all ability to apply to multiple colleges across the country. This is just one more wrinkle.
We underestimate HS kids if we think they canât figure this out. Most of them spend hours and hours a day doing âresearchâ on what kind of shampoo to buy (influencers, reviews, the reviews of the reviews) and and wonât even listen to a piece of music without first considering which âfamousâ person has it on their playlist⊠we think reading the FAQ page on a collegeâs admission site is beyond them?
2 Likes
I agree there is a very long list of different issues different kids face, but I donât personally think that means I have to choose some of those not to care about.
I also was definitely not intending to blame the individual colleges. Just the opposite, I was trying to explain why it is a systemic problem outside the control of the individual colleges.
Frankly, perhaps for obvious reasons, the participants in this I feel most negatively about are the parents who sometimes encourage their kids in this way of thinking about colleges. I like your sports analogy, because they remind me of the parents I have seen in youth sports, who do in fact put all sorts of undue pressure on their talented kids, and in some cases demonstrably ruin what should be great experiences for their kids.
And I donât think sympathizing with those kids is the same thing as wanting to shield them from competitive realities. Losses, personal failures, and so on are not just unavoidable, but a valued part of the experience. How these parents make their kids feel about all that is avoidable, and not valued by me.
5 Likes
Disappointment is part of life. If the biggest disappointment S24 faces in his life is getting rejected by Brown, heâll be beyond fortunate. I feel badly for any kid who is still suffering over what happened last week â S24 has already moved on.
9 Likes
Since there isnât a better meta-thread, figured I would share here - Stanford updated its admissions site (I believe in the last week) to announce that they will remain test-optional for 2025.
1 Like
Iâve been told that the Ivys want to pretend to be TO for as long as possible because it makes it easier for them to admit athletes with absurdly low test scores. Probably safe to assume that unhooked students without scores will get instant rejections.
4 Likes
Curious where you saw this? I just looked at Stanfordâs undergrad admissions site and saw this:
IN RESPONSE TO COVID-19
In a typical year, Stanford requires just one examâeither the ACT or the SAT. The Writing/Essay section is not required. In light of challenges related to COVID-19, Stanford is test optional for the 2023â24 application cycle. Our testing policy for future years has not yet been determined.