<p>I had targeted both Brown and Yale for my short list of “reach” schools and was then able to visit them (over night visits through acquaintances) in September. I targeted them both for the same reason-- high quality Ivy schools with reps for very creative, intellectual students.</p>
<p>I thought brown was fantastic, but I was truly blown away by Yale and ended up applying to Yale EA. Yale’s facilities generally outclassed Brown by a mile, from the magnificent residential colleges down to the libraries and laboratories. Both schools had warm, enthusiastic student bodies, but I just got the impression that there were more truly standout students at Yale. Yale just seemed more serious and world class as an institution.</p>
<p>Providence seemed a little less grungy than New Haven, perhaps offers a little more to students, but they were both about the same size and the immediate areas around each offered comparable amenities and attractions.</p>
<p>There’s also a point at which comparing academics becomes ridiculous. Brown is stronger than Yale in some departments, vice versa in others. And then there are some things you’ll want to go to Princeton for. But each to his own.</p>
<p>Honestly, you can mess around and do whatever you want with your education. Even if a school has distribution requirements (but no core) in lieu of an open curriculum, you’re dealing with the same structure most of the time. I’m a science major, yet I’ve taken a number of humanities/literature classes. I understand that “venturing outside your comfort zone” is fairly common at Brown. My friend at Yale says that the distribution requirements are so broad that she doesn’t notice them so long as she maintains interests outside of her major.</p>
<p>We get great professors; we also get really clever people who have done very interesting things but can’t teach. I’m not complaining, though. It’s pretty cool to have a class with them.</p>
<p>Go on feel. If you like Yale better, good for you! There is also the prestige factor, as well as the amenities, endowment (which, when it comes to building things you may (or may not) use, makes a difference), all of which are <em>perfectly acceptable</em> things to be worried about. Brown has its own set of things to offer, and you can weigh thoseand your personal situationaccordingly.</p>
<p>My post wasn’t meant to disparage Yale so much as to call into question this whole Yale is so rigorous nonsense. It’s no more rigorous than Brown or any other quality undergraduate institution. However, I do believe the students at Brown are a notch better than Yale, or Harvard for that matter. Here’s my rationale. Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Dartmouth, et al., produce quality “systems managers”, not people who genuinely think creatively, or are intellectually curious. I don’t believe it’s a coincidence that the global economic crisis was predominately created by people who attended HYPDPSM, et al. While Brown produces some people who are on Wall Street as well, they are much more likely to have produced people smart enough(Meredith Whitney for instance) to see the bigger picture and the consequences of following strategems that is not only against the public interest, but, ultimately, their own interests as well.</p>
<p>As for the fantastic physical plant Yale has. Much of that was built by money by people whose thought processes are as I just described. Their focus is on amassing capital, without the intellectual breadth or depth to see how this adversely impacts other segments of society and contributes to the dissipation of the public trust in institutions that so obviously impede equity. The fact that Yalies are impressive in law school just validates my point. People in law school are not so much bright as conformist systems managers, engaging in psuedo-intellectual exercises to validate moral relativity and the protection of avariciousness and injustice. I find the people from Brown far more intellectually robust and big picture oriented. Just my .02.</p>
<p>“Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Dartmouth, et al., produce quality “systems managers”, not people who genuinely think creatively, or are intellectually curious.”</p>
<p>Like I said before: your pro-Brown bias is deafening – not to mention your ability to generalize throughout the wildest of realms.</p>
<p>My post is necessarily pro-Brown. It’s the facts as I see them. Do you deny that you find a disproportionate number of HYP Dartmouth types on Wall Street, and in such unproductive pursuits as derivatives trading, or involved with entities that lack transparency such as private equity or investment banks? Both Geithner and Paulson are Dartmouth grads. Obama is a Harvard Law Grad. Obama’s cabinet is disproportionately Harvard oriented, and pretty much none of these people have shown themselves to be adept as discerning and acting on, the public interest. They are little more than systems managers. These people aren’t intellectual, they’re unimaginative greed peddlers. Greed peddlers without the intellect to see the dead end this will mean for the country in the long run. I find Brown grads and people much more likely to question the status quo, and, at heart, true intellectualism is subversive. It’s questioning. It’s revolutionary. None of these Harvard, Yale, types have this depth of intellect. You are making the assumption that I don’t resonate with the Harvard crowd and, yes, I am conflating Yale and Harvard because they are two sides of the same mediocre coin. My wife’s a Harvard grad, and I often go to activities where she socializes with her classmates from college. A more mundane, unimaginative, crowd would be hard to find. Nice people. “Successful” people. Ironically, one of the few in the crowd who had some depth was a Brown grad married to a Dartmouth grad. She had worked for The United Nations.</p>
<p>So should I list to you people whom I know that did similar things such as work for the UN or Teach for America or went into the clergy or founded NFP orgs or work in community service orgs or joined the military, etc. who were from the non-Brown schools?</p>
<p>You can hold onto your opinions… that’s fine with me.</p>
<p>I’m sure there are non-Brown grads or students who have a social conscience and are genuinely intellectually curious and capable. That’ not the point. The point is that the overarching ethos of most non-Brown schools is conformist and non-questioning, and this is particularly true of Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Dartmouth, Wharton, Stanford, et al. The financial “success” these schools tout as part of their raison d’etre constitutes golden intellectual handcuffs preventing them from questioning the consequences of their actions, and the commonality we have with each other as human beings. Not everyone at Brown participates in this inquistive journey either, but the ethos of the school lends itself to cognitive depth, if you want it.</p>
<p>Plenty of Brown grads go to Wall Street and i-banking. There’s no shame in it. Econ, as with many schools, is one of our most popular majors. Its sister concentration, COE (some bastardized form of a business major), is also fairly common. The requirements are such that you can get through either degree without “seeing the big picture” any more than you would at any other school. Brown has some great, tailored courses, but I don’t understand why these classes are necessarily absent at other top colleges.</p>
<p>Moreover, while Brown does excel in activism and global thinking, it’s there only if you want it. Plenty of students are involved in social activism; there are myriad talks on political thought and theory each way. But don’t you see these opportunities at other schools? Don’t you see politically engaged students elsewhere? I practically grew up on the Harvard campus and have seen dozens of friends attend the college throughout my life. Harvard has a strong activist body, one made apparent from a mere stroll through the Yard. Brown is wonderful, but it doesn’t necessarily make its students better people. It doesn’t even make them any more globally aware. Brown, if anything, is a “you get out what you put in” type of place.</p>
<p>This what I said. The overarching “ethos” of the school lent itself to a distinct brand of eduction. You are correct in saying that not all Brunonians partake in this special brand of intellectual fulfillment. However, and again, this is my opinion and observation, Brown is far more a place to find genuinely bright people and students than Harvard or Yale, and Brown’s famous eccentricity allows for fuller intellectual development, because genuine brilliance is “not” conformist.</p>
<p>Up front, let me just say that my dedication to Brown and the curriculum are unwavering. I fought vigorously in support of the curriculum while I was at Brown, and I have a continuing obsession with it to this day. By and large, I believe Brown’s curriculum (and all the trimmings that come therewith) attract – and then cultivate – some of the cleverest minds in the world.</p>
<p>Your posts reflect overgeneralization and ignorance. You assign the values of some members of a community to the community itself, and go on to assign those values to the many members of the community. Yale and Harvard are simply not the places you perceive them to be – and frankly, neither is Brown. As a matter of proportions, you’re vaguely right; every day, Brown’s advancement office feels the sting of the proportion of Brown alums who are uninterested in high-earning low-satisfaction careers. But there are brilliant, evil bankers (and Bobby Jindals) who graduate from Brown. And there are brilliant social entrepreneurs who graduate from Harvard and Yale. Your generalizations are completely off-base.</p>
<p>Your ignorance reaches its maximum in your discussion of professional schools. Harvard Law School has nothing to do with Harvard College. To assign the general “Harvard” label to someone who attended HLS is to demonstrate a profound ignorance about the basic way that professional schools work.</p>
<p>Here’s your general description of law school: “People in law school are not so much bright as conformist systems managers, engaging in psuedo-intellectual exercises to validate moral relativity and the protection of avariciousness and injustice.” This too reflects profound ignorance. Law school, especially at an elite law school, is the precise opposite of what you have described.</p>
<p>This conversation originally started as a Brown v. Yale thread, and has broadened a bit. But getting back to the original focus, look at this article from the New York Observer on “Yaliens”. It runs completely contrary to your argument, as least as Yale goes:</p>