Yale Community at Odds Over Consent

Parents Forum
21

The basic recitation of the agreed-upon facts from prior encounters is painful to read, thinking that we are talking about 19 and 20 year-old kids. Can you imagine what the facts that were disputed sounded like? Ugh.

I can imagine ways of telling stories that would be completely favor expulsion here, or that would make expulsion seem outrageous. I hope, for Yale’s sake, the facts tend towards the former rather than the latter. And I agree: there is a real possibility that prior instances of discipline short of expulsion contributed to the outcome here. (And I am sure he would argue that made him a target for being framed, too.)

22

Of course he’s going to sue. Hopefully Yale has their ducks in row and didn’t play fast and loose with this kid on the word of another kid…a year after the fact.

23

At first, I thought the accusation against him was ridiculous – given that she went back and spent the rest of the night with him after the disputed sexual act. I wouldn’t expect a woman to do that.

But then I noticed that the articles carefully describe her as “currently a junior at Yale,” which might imply that she wasn’t a Yale student when the disputed event occurred. If she was not a Yale student at the time, maybe she went back to his room because she had nowhere else to spend the night. Maybe she had a train ticket home for the next day and no money to buy another one to travel at a different time. Or maybe she was living with her parents and had given them a phony story about spending the night with a girlfriend. Something like that.

24

Or maybe she dropped out of school for a semester or two because of an unplanned pregnancy (that happened to a friend of mine in college). Unless the story breaks, no one will know.

25

Or maybe she is just a junior NOW, and wasn’t one when it happened.

26

Right. Let’s look for logical explanations here. Hoofbeats and horses and all.

27

Maybe Yale has something, but it is hard to imagine what it could be. It is a one year old he said/she said. If I was on a jury, I would have a really hard time with the fact she left and came back to spend the night with him. Unfortunately, the accused doesn’t get a jury and he I s being denied a degree he was only three months away from earning. I don’t deny that sexual assault is an issue on college campuses and that there are guys who deserve expulsion and criminal prosecution. There are also girls who are mean and vindictive and who love attention and drama and who lie. I don’t understand why so many assume the guy is always guilty based on such limited information that comes out in these stories. In this case is it because they think so highly of the Ivy League schools and Yale or so little of men?

28

I’ve no idea what really happened…but I’m not going to assume that a statement made by a PR firm quoting an attorney hired by the accused—and it appears an attorney who did not participate in the process but was hired after the expulsion–is giving a wholly balanced account of what happened. Yet that is what many of those who have commented on news reports regarding this have done.

I think there’s a natural tendency–which I admit I share–of wanting to decide for ourselves what probably happened and whether expulsion was merited. I’ve read articles criticizing Yale for the “lack of transparency.” Yale can’t say what the evidence was because of legal restraints.

Here’s what we do know—Yale hired an independent investigator who is an experienced criminal attorney to conduct an investigation. That person conducted an investigation. It is almost certain that the investigator questioned Montague as well as the alleged victim. Montague had the right to consult an attorney during this process. Apparently, the investigator found that Montague had committed an act or acts which warranted expulsion. Those results were reported to a committee of 5 professors who have been trained to deal with allegations of sexual assault. At least 3 of the 5 concurred in the recommendation to expel Montague. He appealed the decision to the dean of Yale College, who did not overturn the result.

We also know that over the last 9 semesters, a total of seven Yale students have been expelled for sexual misconduct and that this is 11% of those against whom disciplinary charges for sexual misconduct were brought. Others were disciplined with lesser penalties.

As far as I know…that’s all “we”–by which I mean the reading public–know about what happened.

I don’t think I know enough to determine whether Montague was treated fairly or not. I don’t think the Yale basketball team does either. Like @JHS I can imagine scenarios in which his expulsion was warranted—and others in which it was not. But the key word is “imagine.” I don’t know.

29

According to this she was a Yale student at the time. I never read anything that made me think she was not. I just read it as they were clarifying what year she is in now.

http://yaledailynews.com/blog/2016/03/14/developments-in-the-montague-story/

30

I imagine the Yale basketball team knows (or thinks it knows) a lot more about this case than we do. Lots of people obviously know a lot more about this case than is being reported. It was in the works for four months, not to mention being something of an event in October 2014.

It may be my fuddiduddiness speaking, but I think sex four times in a reasonably short period of time is a relationship, not a casual hook-up. I assume something emotional was going on, and since Montague’s lawyer doesn’t allege that the relationship continued beyond the night in question, I assume it ended then. On the one hand, the woman went back to his room, and on the other hand she apparently never went there again. I don’t doubt at all that something traumatic happened.

I don’t understand, really, why it took 13 months to initiate a complaint, though. That’s forever in the lives of college students. He and his family may have paid Yale close to $200,000 in tuition, etc., between the act in question and the time Yale determined that it should expel him for it. That isn’t fair at all. I understand that it may take rape victims a long time to be willing to acknowledge what happened to them, but I also understand that for both parties the farther away from the event you get, the more you are dealing with a reconstructed, reinforced interpretation of what happened and the less you are dealing with a reliable memory. That makes adjudications like this problematic.

31

Right. If he ends up not suing, remember this point.

And here’s a little cynicism. Would Yale railroad the captain of the basketball team when the team was having great success? Note that Yale didn’t really make an example of him, because it was the actions of his supporters (the team and his own father) that sparked public attention to the situation.

32

Obviously Yale administration did not expect their team to reach NCAA with all the publicity that this entails.

33

@JHS how do you feel about the 5 year statue of limitations that Connecticut gives an individual to report a sexual assault?

34

^^^ or they did and they didn’t want to play a senior captain and player that is involved in this making any win even more shadowed.

35

There are plenty of types of PR spin that we shouldn’t take at face value. Threats to sue are in that group. But an attorney’s explicit, specific statement about which allegations were undisputed are quite likely to be true.

Here are the parts of the defense of Yale that I question:

“Independent investigator” – who works for Yale and who wants to get hired again. If the institution thinks that one outcome or another is more desirable for the institution for whatever reason, it’s easy to signal that to the investigator. Yale isn’t FSU, and I don’t assume that performance in what is likely to be one game of the tournament (even with Montague) is more important to its leadership than other priorities.

“professors who have been trained to deal with allegations of sexual assault” – if they went through a weekend, or even months, of training, would you expect a math professor to be able to do brain surgery competently? Because adjudicating a sexual assault accusation (even in civil court) is the brain surgery of the legal profession. We don’t give this task to law students with 2-3 years of training; we don’t give it to lawyers, period. We only give it to judges who typically have 10+ years of experience and are full-time specialists who do nothing but decide disputes every day.

“accused get lawyers as advisors” – the lawyers have an extremely limited role compared to what they can do in a civil case. Among other things, they can’t speak to their clients during hearings and they can’t cross-examine witnesses.

I agree with Hunt that if there’s no lawsuit following these public threats, there may be multiple accusers or other dirt. I do expect to see a lawsuit, though, because the family seems to have some resources, and there’s little to lose given that the student’s name has already been widely publicized.

36

I wonder. If they don’t file a lawsuit, and the story fades out, what happens later when the guy’s history is Googled? It would reveal that he was expelled, but that it was highly controversial and that he had a lot of defenders. That might be better for him than litigating if the detailed facts are not so good for him.

37

If he doesn’t fight it- it would look like he were guilty. Google his name, see he was expelled from Yale, didn’t fight it? I would doubt that any parent would not at least try to clear his name. We live in a world where you can quickly come up with a pseudo background history. Damned if you do and damned if you don’t. Sadly for his family, the word on campus is that this is not a first offense. This could be why the school reacted as sharply as they did. If this is true and others come forward, it wont end well. If nothing else- it has caused parents to speak with example to their hormonal college kids.

38

@Hanna Yes, you can argue that the investigator gets paid by Yale. I seriously doubt though that anyone in the Yale administration said “we want to expel this guy.” Remember: 89% of the cases investigated have NOT resulted in expulsion. Moreover, as far as I know, this is not a case in which there was gossip on campus about what happened with a ground swell of support for the alleged victim. I think you’re really reaching when you SPECULATE that Yale signaled to the investigator that it wanted this guy expelled and a lawyer took on the job knowing that. Additionally, I think it probable that even if Yale was so unethical that it hired an experienced criminal attorney who agreed to do its bidding, the lawyer would be very well aware that if he found the guy had committed the offense and recommended expulsion when there wasn’t a preponderance of evidence against him that there WOULD be a law suit.
Who would want to be the attorney who is questioned about his investigation and says “I found him guilty because Yale told me to.” Or, more likely, can’t make out a case that there was a preponderance of evidence against him.

The decisions in rape trials are NOT made by a judge. They are made by a jury. What greater expertise did the Owen Labrie jury have to determine his guilt than 5 professors who have been trained? Sexual assault cases are NOT brain surgery. They ARE difficult because they are so often he said/she said cases. That’s not the same thing as complicated though.

Aren’t you really arguing that nobody should be expelled unless he has been criminally convicted of a sexual offense? I know a lot of people believe that. I don’t. Corporations make decisions like this all the time. They often hire outside counsel to conduct internal investigations of alleged employee misconduct. We don’t say a corporation can’t fire someone for embezzlement, for sexually harassing employees, for trading on insider information, for falsifying sales figures, etc. unless the employee is criminally convicted. I personally have conducted investigations which resulted in the termination of employment when I concluded that it was probable that someone traded on insider information or forged a client’s signature but it certainly wasn’t “beyond a reasonable doubt.” Why should we say that students have greater protections than employees?

I do agree that the attorney’s recitation of undisputed facts is probably accurate. That doesn’t mean it’s COMPLETE. I’m sure you can think of cases in which all those statements are true but expulsion is warranted.

39

@jonri, I love your posts on this issue.

If the attorney for the Yale athlete is correct than the athlete should not have been kicked out. Did the attorney really give out all the facts in the case? Really?

I find the admission that Yale only expels 11 percent of the accused very interesting.

I read some posts here and if I took them at face value, I would think there is an epidemic of innocent men gettting kicked out of schools.

I am sure some innocent guys are getting kicked out of schools but it is obvious more guilty guys by a considerable margin are getting away with stuff.

I am glad there are people fighting for the accused. I wish more people were fighting for the victims.

There have been some recent stories in the SF bay area of unopened rape kits. And a few of men in power at UC Berkeley have been doing naughty things. I am tired of reading these stories.

40

“I think you’re really reaching when you SPECULATE that Yale signaled to the investigator that it wanted this guy expelled and a lawyer took on the job knowing that.”

I said that the investigator isn’t neutral. He is paid by an interested party. I didn’t speculate anything about what happened in this case. I said that it is easy for the U to tip its hand to the investigator. There are many reasons why a university might want a given student to be found responsible or not.

“The decisions in rape trials are NOT made by a judge.”

Look at my post again. I said “adjudicated,” not decided. Juries don’t do anything that isn’t tightly controlled by professionals. Besides, jury trials are not universal; both criminal and civil cases involving sexual assault are regularly decided by judges if the parties so elect.

“Sexual assault cases are NOT brain surgery.”

What’s the basis for that statement? How many of these cases have you worked on, or even observed, that would give you the chance to examine what level of skill is involved in doing them right? If my kid was assaulted or accused, I’m not OK with some math professors (and often undergrads and cafeteria directors) who went to a weekend seminar acting without the guidance of an expert. Especially with my child’s lawyer not allowed to speak at the hearing. In criminal trials, of course, the judge can overrule the jury’s decision if it’s contrary to the evidence, but there’s no one to do that here.

"Who would want to be the attorney who is questioned about his investigation and says “I found him guilty because Yale told me to.”

Oh, come on. They’re way smarter than that. Anyone who depends on repeat business can see whether schools hire him again or not. And the bias could easily go in either direction.

“Aren’t you really arguing that nobody should be expelled unless he has been criminally convicted of a sexual offense?”

No. Clear and convincing evidence is plenty for me, but you need due process protections for both sides to give the adjudicator any shot at finding out the truth.

“I wish more people were fighting for the victims.”

Fighting for good procedure that gets at the truth is fighting for both sides. It is devastating to the real and persistent problems in our society that rape, bad breakups and touching on the dance floor are being thrown into the same “sexual assault” pot.