<p>Harvard kids, you’re just as insecure as you always were. Keep trying, though.</p>
<p>As I said before, there’s no point in reasoning with the Yalies. They are the Intelligent Design folks among colleges.</p>
<p>Point 1. Cornell’s medical school and main campus are in totally different cities hundreds of miles apart. But to posterX, this is comparable to the 20 minute commute by bus (10 minutes by car) between the Harvard main campus and Harvard Medical School. </p>
<p>Point 2. “In terms of the central campus grants, Yale far surpasses Harvard.” How? Most of the Yale’s NIH grant is to the Medical School; without it, Yale’s amount would probably be lower than that of Princeton (only 38 milllion NIH grants). </p>
<p>Point 3. “Because Harvard and Yale are both in the top five, they must be comparable”. Yale isn’t in the top five - Stanford, MIT, Berkeley, UCSD, Caltech, Princeton, Johns Hopkins, U. Chicago, U. Michigan, all these schools have better scientific research programs than Yale. Even if they were in the top 5 together, it doesn’t follow that the #1 and the #5 would be comparable. Harvard almost always doubles, triples, quadruples whatever Yale has. If France is #5 and U.S.A. is #1, does it mean the French miliary is a match for the U.S. military?</p>
<p>Anyway, I’m sick of wasting my time so let me concede defeat. Congratulations, Yale is indeed the greatest school in the world. Even if its research output is only a fraction of Harvard’s. Even if its research funding is a tiny fraction of Harvard’s. Even if it only has a fraction of the world’s most accomplished scholars that Harvard has. Even if it loses 80% of the common admits to Harvard every year. Even if its admissions office is so desperate that they have to cheat to make the numbers look better (by admitting a larger fraction from the early decision pool, by admitting a smaller number than they can afford and inflating the yield by taking people off the waiting list one by one, and by repeatedly referring to yield numbers that are higher than actual). Even if it raises only a fraction of the money that Harvard raises every year. Even if it’s located in New Haven, the most happening city in the East Coast. Even if 90% of the people on the world has never heard of it while they’ve all heard of Harvard. Even if it has poster X.</p>
<p>Yale, you are the greatest.</p>
<p>haha. Extremely offensive to be compared to an Intelligent Designer, just FYI.</p>
<p>So, with conflicting information, I guess it comes down to who do we trust. In one corner, we have the world’s one and only authority on scientific research, and the determinant of whether or not many researchers receive tenure or not, the Institute for Scientific Information’s Sciencewatch publication (which is readily available online). In the other corner, a poster named “ske293.”</p>
<p>Hmmm…</p>
<p>Along the same lines, would we trust that “ske293’s” claim that without the medical school, Yale’s NIH funding would be less than Princeton’s? I don’t think so. Yale, as one of the top research institutions in the world, would win by a mile in that category as well. Look for yourself.</p>
<p>Everything you say is so full of **** it’s amazing.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>ISI is not the “world’s one and only authority on scientific research”, it merely counts citation impact factors. How do you define “the only authority on scientific research” and what is your proof that ISI is this entity?</p></li>
<li><p>ISI does not determine whether a researcher gets tenure or not. Maybe only at a backwater place like Yale. Awarding tenure is an extremely complicated process that entails a thorough evaluation of one’s research achievement and can take up to a year. Tenure committee members actually read the candidate’s publications/books. They also ask up to 10 or more prominent scholars from all over the world to write an evaluation of the candidate’s standing in the field. There’s also internal politics within the department that influences whether one gets tenure. Only an idiot would believe that the ISI impact factor determines whether someone gets tenure.</p></li>
<li><p>Actually, it comes down to your word vs. my word. Any person of normal intelligence would see that you are clueless and are only skilled at misrepresenting and distorting facts and making claims that are simply not true. You are not convincing anybody. </p></li>
<li><p>Where’s your proof that Yale is in the top 5 in research? Where’s the link?</p></li>
<li><p>According to the NIH website,
<a href=“http://grants2.nih.gov/grants/award/rank/medttl04.htm[/url]”>http://grants2.nih.gov/grants/award/rank/medttl04.htm</a>
Yale Medical School received $ 287811 (amount in thousands) in 2004.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Yale University including Medical School received $323614 in 2004.</p>
<p>So the Yale central campus received the difference, $35803.</p>
<p>During the same period, Princeton University, which does not have a medical school, received $38239, despite having a smaller Arts and Sciences faculty than Yale.</p>
<p>Hmmm, this tells me that Princeton in fact does better than Yale, just as I correctly suspected. Or do you have some another creative explanation or way of spinning things so that Yale is still the greatest research institution in the world?</p>
<p>The more I think about it, the analogy to the U.S.A. and France is really appropriate.</p>
<p>U.S.A. and Harvard:<br>
the most powerful minds in the world, well-rounded, unsurpassed wealth, unparalleled scientific achievement</p>
<p>France and Yale:
artsy, gay, second-rate in science, delusions of grandeur, persistent hostility to #1 above</p>
<p>“Taking the sum of their ranks and dividing by the number of the number of appearances… Caltech scored the highest average placement, with a mark of 3.14, followed by Harvard at 3.40, then Duke and Yale (4.50 each), MIT (4.67), Stanford (5.36), UC Berkeley (5.63), UC San Diego (5.78), Columbia (6.38), and the University of Michigan (6.71).” Source: Website listed below</p>
<p>Even using the slightly different ranking, explained on the website below, the universities that I listed in earlier posts (Harvard, Stanford, MIT, UCSD and Yale) are the top five.</p>
<p><a href=“Registered & Protected by MarkMonitor”>Registered & Protected by MarkMonitor;
<p>As far as your other questions, you are simply taking the wrong things into consideration and because of faculty crossover, your calculations are simply incorrect.</p>
<p>Also, I don’t think being “artsy” is a negative when you consider that Yale easily has the strongest university arts facilities in the world. Yale has many “artsy” students but it also has many students talented in other areas. In fact, to use your comparisons, Harvard is worse than second-rate in the arts. Most people would say that it is fourth- or fifth-rate. Perhaps the valid comparison is France (Yale) with Pakistan (Harvard). Pakistan is bigger, but France is of a much higher quality, not to mention closer to New York City. Although, the whole U.S. versus France thing you brought up is also pretty interesting, because the U.S., relatively speaking of course, is a sprawling, traffic infested, spread-out wasteland with distances so far you will never see anyone you know (just like Harvard), whereas France is a pedestrian friendly, compact, easy to walk around, cultural mecca (just like Yale).</p>
<p>You are the master of distortion. The title of the Science article clearly states:</p>
<p>“Harvard Rides High in Latest Top Ten Research Roundup”</p>
<p>but now you have to DIVIDE by the number of top 10 appearances according to your unique ranking system. Doesn’t that penalize you for placing high in many areas, as Harvard does? (top 10 in 15 fields compared to Yale’s 8). You didn’t just didn’t want to admit that Harvard was #1 in the original ranking, did you?</p>
<p>Harvard is home to many talented artists, musicians, writers, actors, and perfomers, and there’s a very long list of celebrities from Harvard. Why do you think the American Repertory Theater, one of the nation’s most celebrated resident theaters, moved to Harvard Square from New Haven? Boston/Cambridge is home to well-known orchestras, dance companies, and music schools, e.g. Boston Symphony Orchestra, the New England Conservatory, the Boston Conservatory, the Berklee College of Music. Longy School of Music is two blocks from where I live. Harvard just built a brand new student Dance Center staffed by professional dancers, and is also building a state-of-the-art student theater to replace the old one. There’s a week-long campus wide arts festival called “Arts First” every spring, which features some really amazing talent within the Harvard student population. The point is that there’s plenty of high quality art at Harvard and a large community of artistic minded people. It’s just that Harvard is less lopsided than Yale. It’s truly the Renaissance Man among the colleges, excelling in all the arts, the humanities, the social sciences, biological and physical sciences, and professional training.</p>
<p>I thought your comments about the U.S. vs. France rivalry was pretty funny. Good to know that you have a sense of humor.</p>
<p>In fact, Harvard is recognized worldwide as not only the top university overall, but the top in the arts & humanities and the top in the social sciences and biomedicine.</p>
<p><a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Times_Higher_Education_Supplement[/url]”>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Times_Higher_Education_Supplement</a></p>
<p>anyone else think it was unnecessary to call France gay?
honey, there are just as many gays at Harvard.</p>
<p>Despite your point, Byerly, Mr. Fiske, the world’s leading authority on colleges, says that Yale provides the best liberal arts education for undergraduates in the country. Perhaps that’s why Yale undergrad has been more selective than Harvard undergrad for two of the past three years.</p>
<p>ske293, the science ranking showing Caltech at #1, with Harvard and Yale following, is not my ranking system. Read the article I posted more carefully. Also, your story about the ART moving to New Haven is not complete because in actuality, it’s just one person that moved, with the theatre essentially splitting into the ART and the YRT, of which the YRT (Yale Rep) is now much more highly regarded. In any case, you started off by making comparisons - France versus the U.S. Harvard has some great arts resources, but by comparison to Yale, it looks like Novosibirsk State.</p>
<p>Here’s a telling link from the Times Study that Byerly posted - Harvard ranks just above Case Western. Interestingly, a school in your hated rival country of France takes top honors!</p>
<hr>
<p>Top universities worldwide
“This ranking was determined by the level of attention that students receive from university faculty members.”</p>
<p>1 </p>
<p>Oh my goodness folks, these country analogies are getting more than a little absurd.</p>
<p>I guess I’d like to preface this by saying that I don’t like it when Yalies bash Harvard unfairly. Nothing wrong with a little friendly rivalry between Yalies and Cantabs, but sometimes I detect some genuine bitterness and this blind “boooo Harvard Sucks!!!” mentality that I think is pretty distasteful. As Byerly so often likes to point out, we’ll likely be applying there for grad school, anyhow (except maybe those who are shooting for Yale Law).</p>
<p>That being said, Ske, I’d think you should be confident enough in your own school’s greatness so that you don’t feel the need to come over to the Yale boards and call it “second-rate at sciences” and with filled with “delusions of grandeur.” I’ve always wondered why some people who go to Harvard feel the need to make sure <em>everyone</em> knows Harvard is the best school in the country, the world, and the known universe. It speaks to me not only of arrogance but of insecurity, like your own identity is so tied to Harvard’s being #1 that everytime someone says they prefer college X, or thinks college X is better for undergrads, it means that <em>you</em> are not considered to be #1. And so you have to go around making sure no one but those who are “gay” or “artsy” could honestly prefer Yale to Harvard. It’s honestly a little ridiculous, and I really don’t think it helps swing many people towards your style of thinking. Harvard is an amazing university, and I think someone would have to be out of their mind not to recognize it. But telling Yalies on their own board that Yale has “delusions of grandeur” so that you might feel still more satisfaction at going to Harvard seems downright rude.</p>
<p>DMW</p>
<p>Though I’m going to Yale next year, I find it absurd that some posters are claiming that Yale, as a research university, is better than Harvard. Looking only at the quality of faculty and their research, Harvard is clearly the best university in the world, while Yale is not even second (Stanford is almost certainly better and there may be others). At the same time, this does not mean that Harvard provides undergraduates with a better education. The qualities that make a good undergraduate education are very different from those that make a good research university. For example, liberal arts colleges often provide a better education than do large state schools, even though the state schools probably are better in research. I personally believe that Yale is better than Harvard in this respect (which is why I did not apply to Harvard) due to the greater focus undergraduates both by the administration and the faculty. Yet, since there is no objective way to measure quality of education, this thread, and others like it, will probably continue to be subjected to absurd claims based on blinding loyalty to one’s school (by all sides).</p>
<p>Yale & Princeton > Harvard when it comes to undergraduate education. That’s all. </p>
<p>Yes, Harvard has fantastic grad schools. True. True. Irrelevant. This is a college discussion forum.</p>
<p>[url=<a href=“http://college.■■■■■■■■■■■■■/view/?id=20&app=college]Nash[/url”>http://college.■■■■■■■■■■■■■/view/?id=20&app=college]Nash[/url</a>]</p>
<p>Harvard has fantastic graduate programs, but Yale and Princeton do as well. All three of these schools have a million dollars per student in endowment funds. Research quality and academic quality have more to do with this than with size - and it’s not as if Yale, Princeton, Duke, etc. have small, or even medium-sized research budgets to begin with. In many departments, they have the same research output as prestigious universities four times their size. They all have massive research budgets.</p>
<p>Just the fact that the top schools in research impact according to the ISI - Caltech, Harvard and Yale - are so vastly different in size from one another is perfect evidence that quality is more important than quantity. And when employers or graduate schools look at hiring someone from these institutions, all of which publish hundreds and thousands of cutting edge papers each year, they look at just what the student has done, and if the program QUALITY was very high. They do not care if the university he/she came from published 500 papers or 800 papers in the past year.</p>
<p>PosterX, your “quantity vs. quality” argument, where Harvard represents quantity and Yale represents quality, is more than a little beguiling. It’s not like Harvard is just picking up people off the street and asking them to write papers on biochemistry so they can have another biochem paper. Their “star” tenure system deliberately goes after only the leaders of their respective academic fields. What is so remarkable about Harvard University is the caliber of its faculty in just about every field you can think of, be they large departments or small ones. Could you please just stop posting, PosterX?</p>
<p>That being said, I think Svalbard put it very aptly. Harvard is the best university. It’s very disputable as to whether it’s the best college. And that’s where personal preference comes in.</p>
<p>Best,
DMW</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Wow. Quite the etnocentric statement. Don’t get me wrong, I love Harvard, and I love U.S.A. but have you ever been to Paris? Its magic and beauty put Boston to shame. </p>
<p>P.S. So what about Stanford, then? Is it like Japan?</p>
<p>If we’re going to have this fight, what’s Princeton? The Confederacy?</p>
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<p>Who wants to go to the U.S.A. when you can go to France? ;)</p>
<p>Oh just having some fun teasing posterX… no hard feelings. Of course, I recognize that colleges have distinct characters which are more important than stats … and I fully respect individual preferences. SKE</p>