Yale vs. Umich(ross)

Colleges & Universities University of Michigan
41

<p>“Alexandre, can you prove that USNWR doesn’t take into account Endowment Per Capita when calculating the Financial Resources category or is this just a mere conjecture on your part? No one seems to know how the Financial Resources section is calculated since USNWR doesn’t reveal that.”</p>

<p>It is not whether or not the USNWR takes endowment and endowment per capita into account when calculating the Financial Resurces category, it is whether or not it uses other criteria too heavily, and if so, why? The main inputs that should go into the Financial Resources ranking are endowment (accounting somehow for state appropriations in the case of public universities), endowment per capital and perhaps operating costs. If that’s that case, Michigan would be ranked among the top 15, not #40. </p>

<p>“At any rate, all the Ivies, Chicago, Caltech, Duke, Hopkins, Stanford, MIT, UCLA, and Berkeley are all more internationally renowned than UMich. There is simply no denying this.”</p>

<p>That is grossly inaccurate. I am not going to bash other universities, but Michigan is widely regarded as one of the top 15 US universities in international circles. Internationally, in Europe, only HYPSM, Cal and Columbia have stronger reputations. In Asia, I would add Cornell and UCLA to that short list. Other Ivies, Chicago, Duke, Hopkins etc…have equally good, but not stronger, reputations among the educated classes. That is why the corporate ranking you seem to regard so highly is clearly confusing MSU for Michigan. No offense against MSU, it is a good university, but it would not be ranked nearly as high if it were not for it being confused for Michigan. Your assumption that the confusion would not life Michigan from whatever ranking it had among US universities to the top 15 US universities assumes that there is a significant difference between Michigan’s ranking (say it was #50 among US universities) and #15. There probably isn’t. Beyond Harvard, Stanford and a couple other US universities, the difference between the remaining top universities would be present, but not significant. Like I said, without the confusion, any accurate rating of Michigan by corporate entities, either US or international, would most likely have it among the top 15.</p>

42

<p>This discussion is definitely not about ranking of Michigan. OP had a specific question; how to resolve the conflict between incurring a loan burden of $180 K to attend Yale versus attending Ross, Michigan’s UG business school, at ½ the cost and not incur any loans.</p>

<p>Furthermore OP stated that his/her friend is interested in pursuing business as a career. The following questions are in order.</p>

<ol>
<li>Which of the two has better business curriculum, business faculty, and grooms its students for business?
Curriculum: Ross, in addition to requiring academic breadth (liberal arts), provides the depth needed in various areas of business.
<a href=“Core Course Requirements - BBA - Academics at the Michigan Ross School of Business”>Core Course Requirements - BBA - Academics at the Michigan Ross School of Business;
</ol>

<p>Yale, on the other hand, offers just one course in accounting, ACCT 170a, Financial accounting versus numerous courses offered by Michigan.
In marketing, or business strategy, Yale’s curriculum does not list any courses in these areas. Of course, one may argue that game theory is strategy, but not quite, simply because business eco system is far more complex; game theory is one important aspect of numerous business strategy considerations.
<a href=“Subjects of Instruction < Yale University”>http://catalog.yale.edu/ycps/subjects-of-instruction/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Michigan is well known in the areas of marketing management and strategy among people in the know. Yale, does have a great economics program, and offers a plethora of courses in finance, game theory etc.
<a href=“Economics < Yale University”>Economics < Yale University; </p>

<p>Faculty/Thought leadership: Ross’s business faculty has produced a prodigious volume of work in advancing the concepts of economics, finance, operations research, etc, in ares that are applicable to many strategic & operational aspects of business.
<a href=“Michigan Ross | Faculty & Research”>http://www.bus.umich.edu/FacultyResearch/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Yale’s faculty is well known for fundamental research & innovating in many areas.
<a href=“http://innovators.yale.edu/faculty.asp”>http://innovators.yale.edu/faculty.asp&lt;/a&gt;
In keeping with Yale’s tradition based on “liberating or freeing the mind to its fullest potential. The essence of such an education is not what you study but the result – gaining the ability to think critically and independently and to write, reason, and communicate clearly – the foundation for all professions”, Yale does have an edge over Ross in the area of liberal arts education. However, when it comes to business specific SKILLS, Ross provides the skills needed by the business. This is reflected by the sentiment of business leaders when they recruit at campuses look for specific skills & subject area mastery, and not where the student attended college.
<a href=“Business Leaders Say Knowledge Trumps College Pedigree”>Business Leaders Say Knowledge Trumps College Pedigree; - Well-Being (link repeated for convenience)</p>

<ol>
<li><p>What about business related career resources?
Michigan devotes career resources exclusively for its business students, and it differentiates its business career resources from engineering (ECRC) and liberal arts. This writer is not aware if Yale has a similar career focus wherein its career resources are dedicated in addressing the needs of students who want to get into business related careers (such as operations management, or marketing etc)… Roughly 43% of Ross students find full time employment in finance &15 % in marketing. Yale does not provide this information, but can be inferred to be a smaller percentage of its graduates that go into finance or marketing.
<a href=“Bachelor of Business Administration | Michigan Ross”>http://www.bus.umich.edu/admissions/UndergraduatePrograms/PDF/BBA_Viewbook_lo.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/li&gt;
<li><p>What about starting salary, will I be able to recoup the cost of education?
Ross’ graduates garner a $15K premium over Yale’s graduates. The median salary of Ross graduates in 2012 was $65K (+ with a median bonus of $7.500), while the median salary for Yale graduates for year 2013 was round $50K.
<a href=“Bachelor of Business Administration | Michigan Ross”>http://www.bus.umich.edu/Admissions/UndergraduatePrograms/careers.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/li&gt;
</ol>

<p><a href=“http://ucs.yalecollege.yale.edu/sites/default/files/Yale_College_First_Destination_Report_Class_2013.pdf”>http://ucs.yalecollege.yale.edu/sites/default/files/Yale_College_First_Destination_Report_Class_2013.pdf&lt;/a&gt; (Page 5, “Starting Salary range”)</p>

<p>For a student who is contemplating the pursuit of only an undergraduate degree either from Yale or Ross, in general, ROI for Ross is expected to be higher. </p>

<p>In summary, for OP’s friend, considering specific financial constraints, Michigan Ross is a better option than Yale. However, if OP’s friend is open to other career paths, can convincingly appeal his/her financial package offered by Yale, and if Yale ups its offer to make it financially viable, s/he will have to review the decision. </p>

43

<p>“So if someone speaks ill of UMich, then they must be a ■■■■■ eh rjkofnovi?”</p>

<p>No. Someone who uses multiple screen names to bash a university is a ■■■■■. Someone who invents a screen name and only posts on one board to bash a university is a ■■■■■. Someone who pretends that they are a current/future college student to bash a university is a ■■■■■. etc…</p>

44

<p>Sorry bluebound18 but the frequency and closeness of your posts with ennisthemenace is suspicious to me. </p>

45

<p>"Nobody is ranking their 500-700 student lectures top 15 in the world. Just yesterday a few posters said “the undergraduate lectures [electives] are a complete waste of time.”</p>

<p>Intro-level lectures at Michigan seldom exceed 500 students. 600 or 700 lectures are virtually unheard of. And those large, intro-level lectures are quite common at all large research universities. Do you think those classes that enroll 400 or 500 students at Michigan will magically enroll only 70 or 80 students at Columbia or Harvard? Intro level lectures at Columbia and Harvard often enroll 200 students, some enroll as many as 300 or more students. Once you have more than 100 students, you can no longer boast of having a small classes. At that point, you will invariably move to a lecture-based format. Class size and faculty attention are not going to be the forte of any research university. If one wishes to have intimate, discussed based classes and the full attention of the faculty, LACs are the only way to go. </p>

<p>That being said, large lectures (anything over 100 students qualifies as large) are only common Freshman year. Typically, intermediate and advanced classes that Sophomores and upperclassmen take usually enroll fewer than 30 students (often fewer than 20), except in very popular majors such as Econ, Political Science and Psychology, where such classes will still enroll 50-150 students, but again, that is going to be the case at most elite research universities. Bottom line, one does not go to a research university if one wants an intimate classroom experience and the devotion of the faculty. Again if those are priorities, LACs are the only way to go.</p>

46

<p>“You guys are so deluded it’s incredible.”</p>

<p>Classy as always. </p>

<p>“The lifetime (business) connections you make attending Yale are easily worth $100,000.”</p>

<p>First of all, in this case, the difference is not $100,000, it is $180,000. Secondly, if you want to talk about lifetime, saving $180,000 over four years of college is not exactly $100,000 over a lifetime is it? In fact, it will likely amount to well over a million dollars over a lifetime. I am not sure any connection is worth that much. In fact, most would agree that networking is vastly overstated. Just because you know many successful individuals will not make you successful. As you will one day painfully find out, connections will not stick their necks out, or go out of their way, to help you. Most people save their precious few connections for themselves and their children/family. The are not about to blow a possible favor on some college acquaintance. As Trinity has demonstrated via data published by Ross and Yale respectively, Ross grads outearn Yale graduates significantly. It is safe to say that employment opportunities for Ross grads are fairly good, even compared to those of Yale grads.</p>

<p>“The abundance and quality of job offers that are avail to you as a Yale student simply don’t exist in Ann Arbor, period.”</p>

<p>Really? And are those extremely rare job offers that “do not exist in Ann Arbor” open to all Yale grads or only a select and lucky few? Care to name some of those firms that only recruit at Yale and not at Michigan? I have a list of all universities that recruit at Michigan (Ross and the CoE), but I am curious which firms recruit exclusively at Yale…and how many Yalies they actually hire.</p>

<p>“Yale undergrad is ranked 25 spots higher than Michigan’s undergrad for a very good reason.”</p>

<p>In academic circles, Yale undergrad is only considered 5-10 spots better than Michigan undergrad. A ranking must truly manipulate data to stretch it to 25 spots. And even if the ranking you are alluding to were accurate, in a country with thousands of universities, 25 spots is hardly significant.</p>

<p>“I’d be happy to post my acceptance letter from December.”</p>

<p>Congratulations! But I am confused about something. Clearly, you believe you can do much better than Michigan. If Michigan does not match your standards, and clearly money is no factor in your case, why waste your money there? Why not attend a university worthy of your talents? I think you will be miserable at Michigan.</p>

47

<p>

</p>

<p>Sorry Alexandre, this is no where near the truth. Very, very false. False on large lectures being mostly just freshman outside of major departments, false on major classes in large departments being 50-150 students (they’re often much bigger than that), false on even electives in smaller departments often being under 20 students. Just all false.</p>

48

<p>On a completely unrelated note, below is an interesting comparative snapshot:</p>

<p>MURDERS (per 100,000)
Ann Arbor 1
New Haven 13</p>

<p>FORCIBLE RAPES (per 100,000)
Ann Arbor 35
New Haven 42</p>

<p>ROBBERIES (per 100,000)
Ann Arbor 43
New Haven 650</p>

<p>ASSAULTS (per 100,000)
Ann Arbor 123
New Haven 735</p>

<p>OVERALL CRIME RATE (higher means more crime, US average is 301)
Ann Arbor 172
New Haven 660</p>

<p>I understand that New Haven now has a problem with gang-related violence.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Ann-Arbor-Michigan.html”>http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Ann-Arbor-Michigan.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-New-Haven-Connecticut.html”>http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-New-Haven-Connecticut.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

49

<p><a href=“http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/university-of-michigan-ann-arbor-9092”>http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/university-of-michigan-ann-arbor-9092&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Academic Life</p>

<p>The student-faculty ratio at University of Michigan–Ann Arbor is 16:1, and the school has 45.7 percent of its classes with fewer than 20 students. The most popular majors at University of Michigan–Ann Arbor include: Economics, General; Experimental Psychology; Political Science and Government, General; Business Administration and Management, General; and English Language and Literature, General. The average freshman retention rate, an indicator of student satisfaction, is 96.3 percent.</p>

50

<p>I am not employed, nor am I a “middle manager”. I was never good at reporting into others. I am a business owner. My practice is seasonal, with a very busy September-December period, and a not-so-busy January-May period. I do not work at all June-August. That leaves plenty of time for frivolous activities such as this. Yes, I lead a very difficult life! Oh the struggles of the independently wealthy. ;)</p>

51

<p>Alexandre is being modest bluebound18. Modesty is a fine quality that perhaps one day, as you mature, you’ll be able to call upon when dealing with others. </p>

52

<p>Couldn’t help myself on this one - I was researching Michigan’s Research Community option for my son and stumbled on this thread. I recruit for IBanking at Ross and graduated with UM BBA in the 1980’s. There is no huge IB recruting advantage Yale over Ross, in fact, certain firms favor Ross kids for being better versed in team type activities. However, certain IB firms are very close to Yale given senior mgmt ties. You will find that Yale places really well in sales and trading IB jobs given those ties. But for a straight-up Analyst position in Corp Fin for IBanking, there are probably slightly more Ross hires than Yale hires street-wide each year. The best mgmt consulting gigs, however, go to Yale. And on the east coast, you can’t deny the overall Yale connection as being a difference maker. So I would recommend you sole-search a bit … are you 100% sure you are East-bound after graduation and then plan to stay to maximize that Yale connection? If not, then Ross may be a better choice given its larger global alumni network and strong national recognition of the Ross BBA (and no debt!). Living in NYC with $180k in debt would be no fun … but then again, working 100 hrs a week doesn’t give time for much fun anyway. The IB analyst job is all about getting on a steep learning curve and building skills … where you studied undergrad won’t be that important 2-3 years down that road anyway. However, if you are 100% certain that the East Coast thing is what you “want for a lifetime” then Yale might be worth the extra money for that old-world, Ivy connection that can open some unique doors in NYC. The Michigan connection is strong on the east coast, but Yale has enjoyed a generational head-start that has higher-powered connectivity.</p>