Your child should consider an LAC.

Parents Forum
81

@ccprofandmomof2 - I don’t know if that type of difference would be helpful to a student or not. It depends on the kid. For example, a kid who does best in small discussion groups probably should not attend a huge state university that has mostly giant lectures for the first year of college, even if that kid went to a small, personal high school.

For a four year commitment at a pivotal time in one’s life, and maybe one’s first time away from home, it should be a place that matches your learning style and personality. It will still be “new” in some ways- a new place, new people, etc.

If a kid craves the new adventure of a different type of environment, then that’s right for that particular kid.

If you want your child to consider different types of learning environments, you could take your child to visit some, and see what your child thinks. Listen to your child’s reactions and opinions.

82

The kid should find fit, not the parent. But if the kid has no clue what they are looking for, then it’s good to help the kid understand his/her options.

83

Do not conflate size of college with size of classes.

I was a Classics major- there was one (exactly one) course in the department which was held in a lecture hall. Course was taught by an absolutely brilliant scholar/showman/teacher, and so the U held it in a huge auditorium so the maximum number of students could take the class. And unlike almost every other course in the department- it did not require Greek or Latin (the works were read in translation) and so it was a very popular course. I’m so happy I took that class- there are reasons why some professors attract huge crowds.

But every other class had 8, sometimes 12, sometimes 15 students (20 was considered huge). I had one seminar which had 12 students but it was taught by TWO professors. Try showing up unprepared for that!

My experience really isn’t about the university though… it’s about the discipline. I know students at small LAC’s whose Classics classes are the same size as mine (medium sized university) and students at huge state flagships whose classes are ALSO the same size as mine were. One big lecture taught by an incredible lecturer… the rest are tiny seminars.

Do you really think a class requiring fluency in both Latin and Greek (reading fluency obviously) at a huge Big 10 university is going to have 800 people in it?

Don’t confuse size of the college with size of the classes. I have a friend who majored in Egyptotology and a big class for her had three students since most had only 1. And even at big U’s-- by junior year even the classes which are mostly taken by students in that department are going to shake out to be relatively small.

So all this stuff about kids learning styles- all well and good. But Econ 1 is likely to be big; a class on Pliny and Josephus read in the original is going to be tiny, regardless of where you take it. And at many colleges- the big classes aren’t big because the university is big- they are big because they are taught by master teachers whose lectures are standing room only. Yes- you can watch them online. But who needs live theater when you own a TV??? Different experiences.

The courses in my major were tiny but I LOVED the big lecture style classes I took with the “famous” professors. They were famous for a reason. I can quote Sears Jayne on King Lear even though I took his drama class 40 years ago. And when I read the play now (or watch a performance) I still burst into tears at the moment where professor Jayne burst into tears while reading that passage. What does that tell you? And students filled every seat, lined the hallways, stood outside to hear his lectures when the auditorium was filled.

CC tends to fetishize small classes. But big ones are great too.

84

Almost all students and parents who post aren’t interested in classics, though. I agree that, if attending a large university, a way to get smaller classes is to seek niche subjects.
However, at large flagshis, CC’s most commonly discussed majors (CS, Engineering, Business, Economics) have classes that tend to remain huge or too big for discussion. It might be useful to compare first year classes at ASU, UCLA, UF, UMN-TC in these subjects. First with each other, then with smaller publics (UVermont, UMASS, WWU, Ole Miss). Then compare to Bates, Whitman, Mount Holyoke, Denison, Eckerd, Grinnell.
It’d be a double entry chart, right?

85

I will not encourage LAC’s (I went to one that is well-regarded) because of the simple fact that, institutionally, they are in freefall financially and culturally. Goucher just eliminated its math and physics majors! My college still can’t run a competent career center and, yet, its academics are slouching. Most of these institutions are scrambling financially, have weak networks for internships and post grad jobs, are not in the running for the better students who are choosing more urban schools. They do the job of getting students into grad school but not a lot else. I was always a diehard LAC fan but working in college access really changed my mind.

86

Ime, financial considerations don’t necessarily reach students, their day-to-day experiences. The top LACs, with alums very satisfied with their experiences, bring on successful fundraising campaigns and can start to turn. Where I would be concerned is where a college is already saddled with identity issues, a struggle to bring on a range of solid performing kids, and a less than constructive decision making process. And, where 2008 crippled some, with no recovery contingency plans in place. Leadership matters.

Then you can look at the situation in the UC system, where they continue to struggle, for other reasons.

They can eliminate a “major” without eliminating every one of the classes. Some combine fields or refocus.

87

CS, Engineering, Economics, and Business are majors that do not require small classes or seminars.

88

Re: #84

Remember, on these forums, “LAC” is often used by posters who really mean “elite private LAC”, which are much less likely to have the kinds of financial problems you mention. That is reflective of general forum trends, where posters often mistake characteristics (good or bad) of elite private colleges as being applicable to all colleges.

But also, non LAC colleges can have similar problems of not being able to support what is ordinarily considered a basic major like math or physics. I.e. financial problems and their effects are not exclusive to LACs or non LACs.

89

I think colleges eliminate majors that tend to be under-enrolled. It can happen anywhere, big or small.

I do think it’s important to look beyond the first semester / first year experience. The problem is that that the smaller the college, the higher the likelihood that the what seems ideal in year 1 will seem constraining by the time year 3 rolls around.

90

@itsgettingreal17 I don’t know. I’d still rather our S be in a small Econ class for interaction and discussion purposes with his classmates and the professor. I don’t know if I would feel the same if we weren’t going to pay full price at a private school but, for full tuition, we would really like small classes and our S19 would as well.

91

I just need to say that I think @Lindagaf is getting a lot of negative reaction for what struck me as a pretty innocuous post. I understood her post to mean that some people may not know that small LAC’s are a possibility, because maybe they have not heard of them as much as big research or sports universities, but that they have some positive characteristics she listed, and maybe applicants might want to consider them. She never said anything negative about big universities and clarified in later posts that it was never her intention to disparage universities.

I do agree with someone’s comment that some of these benefits pertain most to highly selective and well funded colleges, not all small colleges.

92

@homerdog I was an econ major many, many years ago at a top 5 LAC. The large majority of my major classes were not seminars; they were (excellent) lectures. The classes were on the smaller side, but still were lectures. It’s not a course of study that requires seminars and is arguably best taught by professors who are excellent lecturers.

93

@Lindagaf.
I am sooo confused how this thread went off track so quickly? Your title says it all. As a parent of kids at both Lacs and large state schools many people don’t even know that Lacs exist. I have no clue how this could be taken as anything else?

94

Sorry, I do disagree that my child should have considered an LAC as suggested in the title. Generally, I don’t think they are for everyone or even the majority of students. Maybe the majority on CC where people post about their ‘horrible’ gpa of 3.7 and the ‘awful’ ACT of 29,and I think most on CC have heard of LACs in general and know the benefits. The majority of college students(over 50%) go to college and live at home (their home or a parent’s home). A huge chunk go to public schools because that’s what they can afford or those are the schools they can get into. A 2.5 gpa and a 20 ACT? Do the LACs even want them?

The big advice on CC is to stay within your budget and know the costs of the school, including travel. LACs were outside our budget (as were Ivies, Duke, California schools, foreign school, etc.). One of the original points was that there is merit or FA at LACs, but sometimes it just isn’t enough to even consider.

I understand that some think LACs are just the greatest thing ever, and OP loves the one her daughter attends (a very happy thing after her not liking it the first year). They can be great for some students, but so very few can attend them because of cost, acceptance rates, location. It would have been mean to suggest to my daughter that she should consider them when she couldn’t attend even if accepted.

95

Unless I missed something, I don’t believe the OP intended to limit the suggestion to consider LACs to only those that are very selective. At least in our case, as PA is full of LACs of all levels of selectivity and excellent merit in many cases, the cost considerations put them very much on a level playing field with the state school alternatives.

96

The PA private LACs may also be more cost-competitive with PA state schools because PA state schools do not have very good in-state financial aid.

97

Don’t consider a school you can’t afford. Kinda thought that goes without saying.

98

My daughter’s Lac is less then our state school. She actually transferred and got a $30,000 merit at another Lac which makes it a great deal for us. Just because these are private schools doesn’t have to mean it’s more expensive. We in fact found they are actually the less expensive options when we were looking.

99

Thank you @Lindagaf for your thread! I agree that students should CONSIDER LACs, just like they should CONSIDER the myriad of other higher education options out there. Let’s not forget that the world is not just small LACs and big universities. There is a lot in between, including community colleges.

I agree that I think many people (who I know, at least) aren’t familiar with them. Other than 2 in my state, my good friend, who herself, is a highly educated educator had not heard of many, including the more well-known ones. About LACs in general, she actually said “why would I pay more (than state univ) for a sub-par education”?

I was not very familiar with many either until a few years ago. I think people just think “private”. And see the published prices and think “can’t afford that!”

We learned more about the LACs thru the book, CTCL while looking for a small school for D1 who said she could not sit in a class of 100 kids and pay attention.

She ended up going to a community college (ours has a great reputation) and absolutely loves it. Now looking to transfer after a couple of years there (1 LAC and 1 large univ on her list).

D1 probably would not have gotten enough merit (even with FA) for us to be able to afford many of the LACs.

D2 now looking at LACs for next year. She has the grades and scores for top merit and along with FA, that will make some LACs about the same as our highly regarded in-state univ (according to the NPC for some may actually be less, but I won’t believe anything until I see if on official school letterhead!)

I will say that even though $30k merit is great, at some of the LACs, that brings it down to $30k or $40k, a year which is out of our budget. We couldn’t do it without FA.

So yes, people should CONSIDER ALL types of school. Even within each “type” schools differ - every large univ is not the same, every LAC is not the same. Every kid is not the same.

100

MODERATOR’S NOTE:
My earlier note was not meant to be limited to my examples:

So not meant to be all-encompassing, but do not spur debate by quoting books, magazines, your Ph.D. thesis, any celeb, CBS News, Yahoo!, etc. Such posts will just continue to be deleted.