Your kid takes the top scholarship instead of the top school. What's next?

sjmom2329 · March 18, 2007, 7:18pm

Re: the SAT’s – past research I’ve read indicated a pretty high correlation between verbal score and g, especially before recentering. So the SAT’s were/are measuring something. As far as test prep is concerned, someone said,

What happens with a tutor or prep course? Pretty much what was just described, according to friends whose kids took such courses.

My feeling is that some kids are natural test takers, and some aren’t. Some kids analyze the questions too deeply, and mess up on the timing aspect. But I don’t think it’s possible to achieve a high score by accident - I don’t believe there are any false positives. Those high scorers are demonstrating something related to g.

As far as the original question is concerned, my older son gave up a Presidential scholarship (full tuition + research/mentorships) to attend an Ivy. It seems to have worked out for him, but I have come to believe that the other schools would have been good too, just in a different way. The key issue for us is that I think he (and we) would have regretted turning down the Ivy acceptances.

simba · March 18, 2007, 7:32pm

“but I have come to believe that the other schools would have been good too, just in a different way.”

My wife has those moments too. But then I tell her, let us pretend we are farmers. Farmers spend every possible dime they have in planting the next crop - with the HOPE that the next year’s harvest will make their investment pay-off. If things turn bad, I don’t believe they think,“I should have put that money in a Federally insured CD or I should have planted soy instead of wheat”.

Investing in your child’s education is just that. It may pay off or it may not, but that is life. That farmer again will be ready to invest during the next planting season.

higherlead · March 18, 2007, 7:42pm

"The key issue for us is that I think he (and we) would have regretted turning down the Ivy acceptances.'

Yes but that probably says as much about the relative worth of the dollars involved to your family as it does about the relative worth of the colleges/educations involved. If the value involved had been say a kidney as opposed to $100 grand over four years would the Ivy still look as good?

Remember folks the values being compared here are high prestige school plus dollars to a lower prestige school for free and just as it is difficult to compare the two schools without knowing the individual circumstances of the student/family making the decision so too the value of $100 grand isn’t the same to every family/student. For one family it may be the difference between driving a Jaguar and a Civic while for another it might be the family farm versus a night job on the loading dock down at the Tyson’s food plant.

kirmum · March 18, 2007, 7:48pm

I knew this would be more interesting than the dinner I went to last night. Since I was late and wouldn’t leave without making one last post, DH asked our host, a psychiatrist, if he should be worried. The answer: maybe!

Dstark, I’ll respond to your “values” post although others did address it correctly. I thinks values are inherently involved with educational choices. I think they guide the choice. Not as in I have good values if I’ll pay $45K and you have bad values if you won’t. To many, based on their values, no school is worth leaving serious merit money on the table. I know some who will pay $45K for HYPSM but no other school, just don’t believe they’re worth it. Many parents will not pay for out of state publics. Values, what you value enough to spend your resources on. Nothing is good or bad, just a disposition based on background, experiences, exposures and much more.

Which brings me to lefthand of dog who had a great query. Were we all thinking this through for all of our children’s lives? I know when I was 25 and bought my first house I bought with schools in mind. When my kids were small it took me lots of visits to different schools to understand each and evaluate the fit. Then we took a sharp turn when my daughter wanted boarding school, something I had never seen or considered. Exposure changed my values.

Educations are cumulative which in a way gives some people wider choices that others. It would be hard to send a kid from a great prep school to a second tier state for any reason. Yes, I expect to get flamed. However, the NY Times covered this issue 2 weeks ago. Kids from schools that prepared them especially well find college lacking in many cases. They interviewed kids from schools like TJ and Andover at top colleges saying freshman year was a review for them and they had much more time to play in college than HS. For better or worse, these kids have also been educated among only gifted kids for the most part.

Then, is it fair to send a kid from an average public school who wants to go to med school to a school where 60% comes from private schools and expect him to get a high GPA? He may, but many find they need a couple of terms to catch up.

calmom · March 18, 2007, 7:52pm

That’s the problem with ascribing validity to the test – it can be prepped for, some students prep, some don’t, and then you try to draw conclusions about native “ability” from the test results. Some kids have been prepping their whole lives for the test and don’t know it – which is what puts some private school students at a distinct advantage.

And it’s also one of the reasons that you find SAT scores end up being a rough proxy for income levels. The one thing for certain is that the average level of affluence rises along with average SAT scores. My kids did not find that attending college with affluent students made for more interesting, lively classes. Quite the contrary. I always found in college that class discussions were most interesting when the class composition was most diverse – sometimes to the consternation of the professor, who was confronted with real world, street smart opinions of some students with life experiences that challenged the theoretical construct being taught.

It’s not a question of relative intellect, it’s a question of engagement and interest. I don’t see much evidence in my life of a uniform type of intelligence in any case: I see people who are very smart in some respects, not so smart in others. The patterns change with the personality and the native talents – but really smart people keep right on doing and saying stupid things, and really ordinary people keep right on coming up with extraordinary ideas from time to time.

I think my daughter is getting a great education at an elite school because some of her profs are amazing and expectations are high. I don’t think she is getting nearly as much from her fellow classmates as she would if she attended a more economically diverse school – there just isn’t the range of experience being brought to the table that there could be. Public universities also may benefit from a little more age-mixing… part of the issue is that even very smart 19 year olds aren’t really that smart. Throw some 26 year olds and maybe a 40-year old into the mix, and things start to get more interesting.

It can also help when the professor happens to be a more engaging or able teacher. Very often teachers who complain about the intellect or level of engagement of their students simply are poor communicators; they have managed to put their students to sleep as they drone on and on. As a student I could see the difference from one class to another – my law school was set up so that almost all of my classes were large lectures with the exact same students in each – yet the level of discourse from one class to another was very different. The prof set the tone – and the amazing, brilliant civil procedure prof simply had a more exciting classroom than the dolt who was designated to teach us real property. (Who was actually a very nice man – just couldn’t really manage a coherent sentence, much less manage to teach a complex subject).

sjmom2329 · March 18, 2007, 8:13pm

I’m not sure I agree with this. Every family has an EFC – unless there is a trust fund, or unlimited financial resources somewhere, most of us find it to be challenging to meet that EFC. At the highly selective, need-based aid schools, there is usually a limit, below which the EFC is 0; for most others, the EFC ends up being about 25% of income, I believe. (Calmom would probably be able to verify this.)

Since most people buy houses and make other financial commitments in relation to their income, 25% is still a significant chunk, whether or not the total income is $80k or $160K – most Ivy’s seem to offer complete aid to those with incomes below $60k. My point is that choosing to forgo the merit aid is a difficult decision process – for us it seemed to involve a leap of faith that what we were gaining was worth the sacrifices the more expensive school entailed.

When I said that I now believe the merit aid schools would have worked out, I’m thinking more in terms of the mentoring/research opportunities than just the cost. There is some benefit in being the big fish in a slightly smaller pond – I’m not sure how to evaluate it.

higherlead · March 18, 2007, 8:25pm

How about this one? Just heard it today.

Q: What is the difference between a frozen pizza and a PhD in Philosophy?

A: A fozen pizza can feed a family of four.

kirmum · March 18, 2007, 8:29pm

Though EFC assumes college savings is a part of family budgeting.

dstark · March 18, 2007, 8:31pm

Kirmum, no flame. I hope you’re not disappointed. :)

I’m not going to use “values” either.

Others have mentioned that people’s opinions don’t seem to change. That’s because other people’s opinions don’t change our opinions too often.

Exposure changes opinions. Experience changes opinions.

So if my opinions fly in the face of your exposure or experience, you’re not going to change your opinions, and vice versa.

Kirmum, as you mentioned, I’ve heard the same thing about boarding school kids.

If others take one or two semesters to catch up, so what?

If these students couldn’t catch up, what would that say about the schools?

kirmum · March 18, 2007, 8:35pm

Those terms can kill a grad school application.

This is what we needed to decide for my oldest, should he go to a UC, which had a great program in his field, or an elite private. In HS he switched from one of CA’s best publics to a strong private. It was an eye opener. At the UC he knew the competition would mostly be CA public school kids, a crowd he thought he could handle in terms of getting the grades for med school. He was afraid to chance it at the private.

dstark · March 18, 2007, 8:37pm

Two terms is a killer?

So, what is your advice to people who have a high school education that can’t compare to the top boarding school education?

Edit: Is your son going to med school?

kirmum · March 18, 2007, 8:43pm

Not just talking about boarding schools, we’re talking great private day schools all over whose graduates are well represented at elite schools.

Yes, 2 terms can certainly certainly kill a med school application.

Son decided to work for a biotech company and then seek an MBA. Mostly convinced by DH (a doc) and MD friends to not go to med school.

momrath · March 18, 2007, 8:44pm

A lot went on while I was asleep over here on the morning side of the world. Lefthandofdog, It’s more like chasing the tails of multiple kites.

Well why not? Undergraduate degrees I would discount, but which PhD program says a lot about a professor’s ability and background. It’s certainly not the only factor and may not be the most important factor, but the caliber of the faculty IS just as important as the caliber of the student body. These are people who are guiding and mentoring, who are writing the recommendations, who are role models and shining lights.

The other point that I touched on but didn’t expand is the breadth and depth of the individual departments. I’m not talking about small LAC versus large university. I mean an apples to apples comparison, selective LAC to second or third circle LAC. Take one or two departments of interest and compare the number of full professors and number of courses offered each term. In my comparison the difference is striking.

I’m not awed by SAT scores, individual or aggregate. (Although the three kids from my son’s high school class who scored perfect 1600’s really were incredibly smart. They ended up at MIT, Stanford and Williams.) The point is as Rorosen says

The student mix at the top tier schools are not just high scorers with good grades. These are the kids who led the class discussion, directed the play, sang the solo, designed the mural, ran the fastest – choose three or four from the Chinese menu of accomplishments and talents. Whenever I have the opportunity to get together with my son’s classmates I am astonished by the talent, the intellect, the enthusiasm – and most importantly – the potential of these kids. All of them, not just the top kids. That, as the ad[wo]man wrote, is priceless.

I also agree with Cheers that risk is not a bad thing, and debt if it doesn’t kill you will make you stronger. Every decision that you make in life, every opportunity that you turn down is a risk. Williams was a reach for my son. Paying full fare is a reach for our family. We did go into our retirement funds and will consequently be working a few more years than planned. Luckily we like our jobs. Now, 3-3/4 years on, I quake to think we might have decided otherwise. It was a risk financially and to an extent academically, but it’s paid off splendidly. I concur:

I am now signing off because my son will soon arrive here in weird and wonderful after a 30 hour journey with 3 of those stunningly brilliant and nice kids to go off on a two week magical mystery tour. I’m going to hear a lot about internships, volunteer stints, arts grants and long term graduate school. These kids are primed and ready.

Reflectivemom, welcome! I understand what you’re trying to say about your son and agree that you should start your own thread. There are plenty of schools out there that fit your son’s wish list.

And lastly to curmudgeon, good thread, but I’m interested, why do you ask?

dstark · March 18, 2007, 8:47pm

Is this because your dh and doctor friends are down on the profession?

Can taking a fifth year in college make up for poor grades freshman year?

curmudgeon · March 18, 2007, 8:50pm

Read post one. I didn’t ask. ;)

sjmom2329 · March 18, 2007, 9:00pm

First of all, I thought I’d mention that I have much more interesting conversations on CC than I did in college – there have to be some benefits to age!

I’d like to bring up one more thought. As adults, do you value prospective new hires from more selective schools over others? How about your personal doctor or lawyer? I do know that in my former business career, it DID matter where one went to college. I was one of the few I know of who snuck in with a public U background. In my husband’s work, it matters a great deal where one went to school – although usually at the graduate level. Finally, I have to admit to a little snobbery? on my own part in a way. I will need to have major surgery within the next 6 months. One doctor I’m considering has an undergraduate degree from Columbia – I have to admit that I do believe that he must have something on the ball to have gotten into a selective college.

epiphany · March 18, 2007, 9:01pm

rorosen,
“humor.” Interesting what your definition of humor is. You obviously fancy yourself as quite humorous. (I have tutors for you who can help you sort out being snide from being humorous.)

To require that posters provide lists for you is not what this thread is about. The thread has meandered in various ways, but it’s not been a school-by-school analysis, by any means. And you haven’t confronted others (who have similarly stated various generalities, some of these way more general & just as non-list verified as mine). Yet you’ve singled me out. I’m sorry that you have not noticed that there are many mediocre privates out there with pretty homogeneous student bodies, just as there are some mediocre publics, too. I don’t need to provide lists. You can choose not to believe that there are such schools, but that hardly changes the fact that they exist. That’s a good thing (that they exist), as I’ve said more than once already. People actually come to this country often for the very reason of choice in higher education. Some students are a lot more comfortable when in homogeneous environments (both culturally & intellectually); it helps make them feel secure, which paradoxically allows them to take chances academically. Others seek highly diverse institutions & locations for the stimulation, because for them it is the differences that motivate & encourage.

Further, I believe my earlier statement about this listed a broad estimate as 80%. That would mean that one-fifth of that student body is not at all of average ability, and for many people – even those not in that 20% – that’s enough of an attraction: it ensures that there will be some challenge, but that the challenge will not dominate. For the 20%, they may very well enjoy & profit from being that big fish in the smaller pond – a point also brought up by other posters.

There’s a reason I’m not providing lists: it’s potentially inflammatory. There’s no need to offend students or parents who might have found a particular college (on a list) not just a suitable place, but a stimulating, nurturing place where the student has become or probably will become successful. And that reason could have less to do with the student body than particular opportunities or self-discovery made by the student, aided by his comfort level at the school. Not all programs are created equal, either. Some State U’s & many privates have better particular departments than some Ivies & some U.C.'s The student may be willing to forego a more overall stimulating student body for the opportunities in a particular major. Again, going back to the question raised by the OP (“your” kid): I answered that my kid far prefers an observable range of abilities & styles in an environment, representing a wide variety of educational backgrounds (as opposed to 70% of the local parochial & public h.schools matriculating to the local Catholic colleges); that gives her more to choose from, socially; it helps her learn better; it provokes her, widens her horizons, it’s more interesting, etc.

I actually have a fine sense of humor. There’s evidence of it on many threads on PF & on the student CC forums. It’s unfortunate that you haven’t seen that.;)

I don’t need a tutor; do you need one? Projection, maybe?

dstark · March 18, 2007, 9:08pm

sjmom2329, I like somebody aware of all the new treatments, experienced with the procedure chosen, and somebody with a high success rate.

My kid has a doctor from NYU. I like him a lot, but it has crossed my mind, “Was NYU a good school when he was there?”

calmom · March 18, 2007, 9:12pm

I’m thinking that some of these kids have gotten a great high school education, but lack the jungle survival skills that my public school-educated kids have. I’m speaking metaphorically of course, but I noticed when I attended a college advising session with my daughter last year that she seemed small more willing to question the guidelines she was given for course selection than the kids from the private schools (practically everyone else from the room). In essence they were all being told to choose their courses from the first year recommended list and my d. wanted to know why she couldn’t choose from the entire Barnard/Columbia catalog, and wouldn’t take no for an answer. She finally ascertained that the reason for the restriction was largely related to the computer program used to drive first year registration … so she signed up for the recommended courses and then immediately went about changing them all when she got to campus in the fall. I thought she was nuts - but if she was looking for challenge, she certainly found it.

I can understand why a kid from a top prep school might be bored at pudunk U… but at a top college? Why don’t they just sign up for harder courses? My kids will lobby until they are blue in the face to get a change in schedule or a rule waiver that will let them land wherever they think they belong.

I am thinking that these kids with “room to play” may be in for a rude awakening when they find that the other students have not merely “caught up”, but have passed them by. I think these “room to play” kids are probably the same ones my daughter is seeing as “not very smart”, because in her eyes, a slacker is a slacker.

I know one thing: when it comes to the question of educational financing, my parental “values” do not entail subsidizing my kid’s partying (except maybe the graduation party at the end of 4 years). I told my son as much, which is why he now pays for college at a lesser institution on his own dime. So if the kid is going to arrive at Expensive Ivy and decide that he/she is already so darn smart that it’s time to play… that seems to me to be one more in favor of picking the school with all that merit money. At least if they know they have to maintain a certain GPA in order to keep the money they might bother to show up to class. They’ll find the challenge they want if they simply look for it.

curmudgeon · March 18, 2007, 9:13pm

Jeez. Since my reasons for starting the thread has come up twice, and even though I thought it was clear enough from post one (which I wish y’all would have read ;)), I’ll recap.

On another thread dstark asked me what he considered a week’s worth of specific questions about my D’s school, her experiences there, my take on the experiences there, and then more generally -do we ever question taking the big scholarship instead of taking the “best” school ?

That particular thread had a few snarky bits so I responded

Arrows in my butt was prophetic wasn’t it?

Another poster posted

Well, maybe she was mistaken about the concept of “all”. LOL.

dstark said

I started a thread. That should do it. Shouldn’t it?

I started a thread with dstark’s post with all the Rhodes questions and the top school top scholarship query. It went well for a while and then turned to crap . Now the arrows are flying again. From every direction, most without purpose , tact, or humor. I tried to get us back on track.

I agree with several others at least on one thing- same song. Fiftieth verse. It gets to be quite grating.

Your kid takes the top scholarship instead of the top school. What's next?

CONNECT WITH US