<p>There’s settling and settling. Evil Robot was clearly in settling mode when debating between Vandy and Yale, his long-time first choice. But, having decided to go to Vandy, he made the best and the most of it and became very happy with his choice. It can be argued that there is not a huge difference between the two colleges. Now if his choice had been between yale (or Vandy) and a huge state school, he might not have been quite so happy. Not because of the quality of the state school, but because of its size. So, we’re back to “love thy safety.” Which also means that thy safety must be worthy of thy love, in other words, be a good fit.</p>
<p>Thanks, Weenie. Like parents everywhere, we really just want happy, self-supporting (eventually!) kids.</p>
<p>
There is a clear correlation between income and test scores – and therefore college placement. But as simba said, correlation is not causation. My feeling, based on a variety of sources over the years, is that the causation may work the opposite way. Essential differences in ability/aptitude lead to the ability to earn higher income. It may not be the case that rich kids are tutored into elite colleges, although a good K-12 education doesn’t hurt. It may be that these kids are the offspring of bright parents who are able to navigate through life in a way that provides monetary rewards. It’s not fair, but that’s a different thread!</p>
<p>“I can assure you Simba, the average family income at the elite colleges correlates very well with the SAT scores. Well over half of the kids come from families earning $100K or more.”</p>
<p>Again they are two separate attributes.</p>
<p>I think you will see very very high correlation with the effort a kid puts in with high SAT scores as well (More than 50%. - Well over half of the kids come from families earning $100K or more - so the other half did not make $100 k or more).</p>
<p>For an engineer 50% is a very low number.</p>
<p>
That may be a bit of what I was suggesting before. If someone grew up their whole life wanting to go to Yale , got in, and couldn’t afford it-like ER from what you remember about his longstanding desire to attend- then he may feel he was settling. But after research and debate and visits he found something that told him he could be fulfilled and happy at Vandy. I don’t think he went in with blinders on and got lucky.</p>
<p>And your posit about Yale and Vandy not being that far apart is something I have been pushing on this thread from the beginning and taking several arrows for BTW. So I think being pretty close in quality in the things that matter to that student is important , too. That’s where D was with her research opps, among other things. An English student wouldn’t have cared about Rhodes" outstanding Bio research opps".</p>
<p>I never said it was causation – but the point is when you are selecting a college and look at the SAT range, the higher the range, the more affluent the student body is likely to be. Though obviously the tuition and financial aid practices also come into play. </p>
<p>The numbers tell you nothing about the academic demands or environment of the college. That’s what this thread is supposed to be about. People are saying that they associate a higher score range with a more vibrant, stimulating academic environment. I say that’s pretty shallow. You learn about academic environment by researching the school. </p>
<p>My daughter’s reaction after O-week at Columbia was something like, “I didn’t know there would be so many jocks here.”
Columbia’s score range is 1350-1650; Columbia also has Division I athletics so it brings in a lot of athletes.
The score range at St. John’s in Maryland is 1250-1440. Columbia has more prestige, and it is an excellent college, but you are probably more likely to stumble upon students discussing Plato during their free time at St. Johns.</p>
<p>Wow! Seems like folks got a bit testy last night. I am now a teacher and based on my experiences I think all of the kids of the posters here will do just fine no matter what they choose because they have parents who care!</p>
<p>IMHO, SAT’s are not the be all and end all. On the other hand, for many places they kind of set a floor that once reached is the end of their use. MIT admssions says once the numbers are near 700 they do not even look anymore. Using the listings at different schools can give folks a guideline, sort of to see what chances are to get in etc. Choosing the school though should be done (and I say this knowing that many kids have no idea what they want to do) with interest areas in mind, geography, size and of course cost parameters if there are any.
That is just the start. </p>
<p>mootmom, SJ et al: I have been teaching now for a number of years and I end up being a counsleor because I teach many seniors in AP. I am fortunate to have many students who keep in touch.( I have been attending lots of weddings,lately). A large number of the kids, for different reasons chose free or almost free versus top school full pay. Some went to top full pay, others went to on or the other on need based. I find that the vast majority end up being happy and go on and do well. I think it is important that the student fits and likes any school he/she chooses. Ironically though, most of those who had dreams of attending HYPS or otehr top schools only to have parents, who changed their minds regarding financing once state school or other near free option came in, still seemed to go on, and do well, and get to their dreams even if via a different, less preferred path. Kids seem pretty resourceful–or maybe just the ones I keep up with.</p>
<p>D went ED and knew the school school she wanted. Yep, expensive, full cost but it was best for her. S, yes as SJmom talks about, we feel if he wants to he can go elite full cost, and it is best for him, he will be able to. On the other hand he likes everything ,and it is a different major, and he is a different kid. It has been really interesting to watch his decision making process evolve. He is now talking to profs, getting details on research, credits, other interest areas, etc. and trying to decide what is important to him. Fortunately, he is the type of person, that in the end, could draw straws from a hat and he would go, adapt, be happy, and get on with it. He loves the diversity and the energy of a big campus but also feels comfortable with the intimacy of the small one. Of course that is why choosing to go somewhere for free might be the best for him! The next couple weeks will be fun to watch and see what he and all the CCer kids do!</p>
<p>By the way, got to hear Darth Vader(JE Jones) narrate a Umich video. One thing I found useful amidst the propaganda was a statement by a prof (or maybe student): “A big school can be made to feel and act like a small one but a small school cannot become big”. As a small school grad I needed convincing but after seeing the sub groups, honors colleges etc, I think I am starting to agree with that and perhaps starting to shed my oldold biases.</p>
<p>So if we are making a list of what a kid must do before deciding on a merit scholarship over their top choice school mine would have:</p>
<p>1) The kid knows they can be happy, proud, and fulfilled intellectually and academically or in any other way they find important, at the merit school.
2) There can’t be a dramatic difference in quality between the two schools in what that student finds important be that student body, profs, research opps, salad bar whatever.</p>
<p>Edit:</p>
<p>3) They need to be a kid capable and happy to run from the front because they may be there, or near there, or in the top group. (They also may not.) Some kids shun the spotlight. Some kids detest being singled out. While some kids love the attention, and feel rewarded by the perks and privileges associated with the big merit awards at some schools.</p>
<p>Let’s try this thought experiment. Assume a kid is an NMF who has the choice to go to Harvard at full cost or (for example) the University of Arizona with a full ride. Kid says he wants to go to Harvard. Parent responds: you can go to Harvard and I will pay, or you can go to Arizona and I will set up a $150,000 trust fund in your name, with the principal and interest paid to you five years after you graduate (parent would still be about $50,000 ahead).</p>
<p>Don’t you think that a lot of kids would change their minds?</p>
<p>“So I think it’s pretty reasonable that if I see a school’s median score puts most student at 1400 and above, my kids can expect a very affluent student body.”</p>
<p>so what???</p>
<p>In DS1’s experience, the ability to blow off steam through silliness is an essential part of life. Certainly better than self-destructive means! He finds a good sense of humor (and when to use it) is an important life skill. He is also one who would benefit from some more partying in his life. Someone who through food fights at Caltech were inappropriate would have a hard time at Mudd or MIT, too – all three schools have a long and distinguished history of pranks! (smart stress relief, if you ask me)</p>
<p>Last night he said that if he had to choose between a CS competition and the prom his senior year (they both take place the same weekend), he would choose the prom. He had to pick me up off the floor. DS2 (my socially savvy HS freshman) exclaimed, “There is HOPE for you!”</p>
<p>My friend (several years ago) gave this choice to her child regarding a free ride to Duke versus paying to go to Harvard. The child was concerned about burdening the parents with the cost of Harvard (with some financial aid, I believe). The parents wanted to remove this consideration from the child’s decision process and told her that they had planned to spend $xxx for college and they would give her the amount of money saved after graduation if she went to Duke. She chose Harvard.</p>
<p>I like the idea of a list, curm.</p>
<p>But, can we explore just a little bit further this idea of fit in the “cheap” vs. “expensive” school. </p>
<p>I’m dealing with a kid who doesn’t seem to know what qualities in a school will fit him. He likes the very techie, “eyes bleeding from so many video games” atmosphere of some of the engineering type schools. But he also knows that a social scene with relatively few girls, lots of frats, and lots of, well, geeks, might get old fast. He also has a musical passion (well, passion might be too strong of a word - but he has taken cello since second grade) - how does that fit in at schools that have virtually no music program?</p>
<p>I know I’m rambling, and bringing in a lot of personal stuff, but sometimes the lure of the money can overshadow what might be, for many kids, a very blurry picture of fit.</p>
<p>
Aaah, here’s where the leopard changes his spots (or at least some will think so.LOL). LOL. Not to give uncareful readers a heart attack ;), but in that scenario my D would have gone to the school in the Harvard spot (Yale) . Why? Because it violates parts of 1) of my list of 3. Remember, it’s what the student values . My kid prefers smaller environments. She was very concerned with the size of UMiami, for example and overwhemed at the size of the University of Arkansas (not a big school at all). Even had it been Mich or Berkeley full ride she’d have been at Yale. And even if the number was the full $200K. Huge was a number she just wouldn’t do if there was an option we could pay for that more met where she wanted to be. $ ain’t everything.</p>
<p>countingdown: Some people do not understand the physics knowledge needed for effective food fights! I remember once being in London in a corporate lunch room. A bunch of new hires,many form Cambridge and top US universities actually had a foodfight. A roll hit a very proper VP in the back of the head. I talked to him years later. Everybody had thought he was really upset at the time. He laughed:“You know those bright young post college lads, they were just having fun!”. Ah, memories.</p>
<p>weenie:</p>
<p>Many schools with no music program as such may have excellent student orchestras, including techie schools.</p>
<p>oldolddad,
A trebuchet would be SO much more effective…</p>
<p>Yay, back on track! I’m reading those numbered points with great interest, curm, hoping to learn the ways of the sages.</p>
<p>MotherOfTwo, we’ve given the same speech to our S2 (except the school names were NOT “Duke” and “Harvard”, LOL!). He knows there is a “college fund” which will pay for the expected full-freight at the most expensive school he gets into. And let me tell you, he is looking forward to that $80K in the bank four years from now, which won’t be spent on tuition if he takes the big scholarship! I suspect he’s telling himself it’s fine to “settle”, even though I don’t think I’d do the same thing, but maybe his priorities really just are different than mine. For me, the “top school” would have won out: the experience over those four years would have felt substantively different to me personally, and I would have taken my parents at their word that they didn’t want me to consider cost. (And did, come to think.) For S2, maybe he really will be happy almost anywhere, and the money is in fact the deciding factor for him. (Sounds as if our sons need to meet, weenie. 
)</p>
<p>And yes, sjmom2329, I’ve wondered if the “older brother at MIT full-pay” fact does or should color any of his (or our) approaches to this. I think the answer is that S2 doesn’t play those “he got it and I didn’t” games in his mind. He does know that the money is there and available for him: it’s sounding like his decision is trending more “I can be happy and satisfied anywhere, and even better if I have a bank account waiting for me afterwards.”</p>
<p>My struggle right now is whether to try to talk him out of it. Silly me, why am I considering rocking a non-tippy boat?</p>
<p>
I guess my point is the same as in my response to EMM. For my D there is not a scholarship that could tempt her to UT or A+M. She wouldn’t even apply, primarily due to their immense size (also that it was in-state). It’s not an atmosphere she likes and she’s been exposed to it from visting friends on campus who ARE thriving there. Would she do well there? I know she would, but she doesn’t know she would.</p>
<p>edit: as a footnote , when D comes home from Memphis to the ranch the first thing she comments on is how much more peaceful , more calm she feels here on the ranch being able to see stars with our almost lack of light pollution to our west and north (some to the east). No people to be seen for miles . (There are a few, we just can’t see them from the cabin in 3 directions. We see one house in one direction.) I expect she will own a ranch someday. This environment would drive others up the wall.</p>
<p>mootie, if sages was meant to include me (and it probably wasn’t ;)) I’m just here learning with everybody else. It’s almost amazing to me but some of things I’m recognizing just today, because of knowledgeable posters who decided to brave the fires, would have helped me a lot 11 months ago. And I thought I had done a lot of work getting ready for decision time so I could advise.</p>
<p>For me, the give the money to them if they go free option does not work. That, I think may put too much pressure on a kid to go with the money. We feel we are paying for an opportunity to get a good education. If that costs x and it is best then we spend x. If there are two places or more that are close and one is free then, at least in our system, s and we see no reason not to go to the least expensive. For us ,if someone wants to give us a car we want or we win it, we are not going to go across town and pay full price for the same thing, even if we like the dealer or could afford it. I know that makes us cheap, practical, and unappreciative of the businesman who is trying to make a buck.
Right, and the board is about trying to find out if the cheaper option is just as good. Curm… I think he lists the personal factors that might come into play for each person. No right answer. Just do your homework. Offer a lot of support whatever the choioce. Let the kids understand what drives your personal value sytem regarding college. Let them know you love them and that things usually work out… and that there are no sure things in life.</p>