<p>Wow, I get some sleep and miss all the action! </p>
<p>Cur, if the choice was between BU with no money and Northeastern with money, I’d probably go with Northeastern. I’m not as familiar with the differences between the schools, since they weren’t on my son’s list, but they are probably similar enough that it would be a good deal. I do know that Northeastern has strong internship programs built into the curriculum, and I think it’s known for engineering. Given that they are both in Boston, the location issues don’t change. And while I think BU is a great school, it is large and doesn’t have a discrete campus – it seems to be kind of spread out through several neighborhoods in Boston. I don’t think the experience at the two schools would differ enough to be worth a huge financial difference.</p>
<p>As a contributor to Evil Robot’s thread several years ago, I can assure all that it’s not a legend. That thread’s length testifies to the strenght of feeling among parents about the relative worth of a Yale vs. Vandy education.
the title of the present thread is “Your kid takes the top scholarship instead of the top school. What’s next?”
Evil Robot came back to CC to tell us what next: he was very happy at Vandy and thriving as a cs major; he had plenty of research opportunities there; he was getting an excellent education.
Curm’s D turned down Yale for Rhodes. What next? She is very happy at Rhodes and thriving as a premed; she has found plenty of research opportunities there; she is getting an excellent education.
Not long after Evil Robot made his decision to attend Vandy, a parent posted that her daughter was depressed that she had been turned down by all the Ivies (unspecified) to which she had applied and had to “settle” for Chicago, Wellesley or Rice. I was taken to task for pointing out that the schools she had been admitted to were excellent and not being sufficiently sympathetic to a kid who was depressed over not being able to attend an Ivy.
While my kid is at an Ivy, I know he would have gotten an excelent education and would have been happy at 2 of the 3 schools. As for Wellesley, well…</p>
<p>Curm:
How much of a financial difference between NEU and BU are we talking about? For certain majors, I’d go with NEU. For these majors, the coop system is a real plus. For some other majors, BU has great strengths, superb profs, that would make it a preferrable choice over NEU. That edge could overcome the financial difference; it would depend on the difference.</p>
<p>While the top law schools grade on a “curve”, we are talking about a median of like a 3.3 at most of those schools. The competition is actually LESS intense at the top law schools, since most students are all but assured a great job, and it is all but impossible to flunk out. The old “paper chase” scenario is either long since dead and/or an urban legend at places like HLS. In fact, Yale basically doesn’t even have grades.</p>
<p>The trick, of course, is gaining admission to one of these schools… but once you are there it is a virtual cakewalk. Going to a “name” law school is infinitely more important than at the undergrad level, as elitism is certainly alive and well at most of the top firms, gov’t agencies, even nonprofits and public interest groups.</p>
<p>To add a personal anecdote, I graduated from one of the top public law schools, and it was virtually impossible to recieve a grade lower than a C. I can think of maybe 2 or 3 people who “acheived” a C- or D+, and they literally didn’t attend those classes more than a few times during the entire semester (in addition to not doing the reading and boozing it up almost nightly). Seriously, you almost have to work at failing out of most of the higher-ranked schools. The safety cushion is unbelievable.</p>
<p>P. S. The word “legend” can be used to mean enduring story. It is not necessarily a negative term.</p>
<p>In the ER story, there are many who believe that the financial decision was the right one for this family. This kid is still attending a top school, not <em>Podunk</em> U… :)</p>
<p>I wrote this up yesterday, then deleted it. I’m not sure if it fits the request for “personal experience stories” that help, or if it will just sound like the distained “seeking affirmation of past decision”. I set it out here in good faith that it might offer a point of view that sometimes chosing an elite school is a matter of fit, not chasing prestige. (I also feel compelled to point out that our experience with the schools in question was individual, and YMMV.)</p>
<p>I have 3 kids, and surprisingly, 3 DIFFERENT kids - imagine that. This is kid #1’s story, and does not fit the situation for either of my other kids, so I doubt it will completely parallel random strangers’ either. There was a post earlier about a kid who chose UGA over Penn. I appreciated that post - respected it, too! Even though it was the exact opposite of what my S1 did. I also know another poster (MOWC) who’s kid chose my kid’s route and isn’t as satisfied. Different kid; different result.</p>
<p>My kid attended Penn over accepting a Terry College of Business / Honors Program / nearly full ride at UGA. And he did so at the last minute.</p>
<p>S1 is the brain of the family. He is skinny, has a lopsided smile, is friendly and accepting. He considers it a compliment to be called a geek. Loves to discuss politics, philosophy, religion, policy, etc, with anyone who can offer a reasonable, rational argument. He’s even changed his mind on occasion, as a result of a good debate! He is an even-keel kid, who went through MS and HS trying to fit into round holes.</p>
<p>He knew about UGA early on, and we all had expected that was where he would go. We were proud of him, and knew it would be a great experience. He had loved Penn from the day he visited - found the school himself via mailings. (I was naive enough that I didn’t even know it was Ivy. I just knew it was expensive.) He had acceptances from a number of great schools, including UVA, GA Tech and Cornell. But no one came close financially to UGA. </p>
<p>We knew Penn was his first love, and that he was accepting UGA because he is an obedient kid, economically minded, and knew we had two more kids to educate. We decided to visit UGA one more time, my stealth plan to get him excited about it.</p>
<p>On the tour, the guide first went around the group one by one to find out which sport each kid played. (Um, none.) </p>
<p>We asked about housing, and the guide explained the process of choosing roommates, stating that the vast majority of students come with roommates already decided, the “losers” who don’t will get their names drawn from a hat. (So much for escaping HS and new start and all that.)</p>
<p>We met with an administrator of the Terry College, who spent the first few minutes complaining about the fact that we hadn’t made an appointment. When he learned that we did, we got treated to his opinion of his secretary and the basic malfunctioning of the program. Once he learned my kid was already in with money, he became ingratiating. But when S asked about International Business (his intended major there), he was told, “You live in GA, you attend a GA state school, we assume you like it here. We train you to live and work in GA.”</p>
<p>I kept my mouth shut, but later confessed to my H that I wasn’t at all sure that S1 belonged there. I really, really wanted him to just once have the feeling that it was okay to be smart, that he wasn’t an oddball.</p>
<p>We didn’t know of CC at that time, and this was our first kid. But looking back, using Cur’s list, this is what we discussed:
This particular kid is an even-keel kid who can “make it work.” </p>
<p>
The part we didn’t feel he would be “happy, proud, and fulfilled” in was socially.</p>
<p>
Again, in the academic portion, since we are discussing the Honors program, there probably wasn’t a huge difference. The exception was in a global perspective. Perhaps because we’re not native Georgians, we didn’t find the concept of limiting education to Georgia all that appealing.</p>
<p>But the social aspect seemed different, because S was not going to live or socialize in an Honors Bubble.</p>
<p>
This may have been a deciding factor. S spent a number of years at the front; this was a “norm” for him, but we were eager for him to experience something else.</p>
<h1>5 N/A - no expectations.</h1>
<p>
S’s first love was economics, but UGA’s program wasn’t the best, hence the change of major. We did decide that if S was going to focus on a BA in a less-employable area, that a more recognized school might be to his advantage. This was a tough call; if he’s not employed, debt becomes even more ominous. Do we take the debt to try to become more employable? Or take the money, and perhaps become less employable, but less desperate about it?</p>
<h1>7 was one I wrote about taking on a work-study job. In S1’s case, he worked all four years of school, and greatly benefitted from the idea of contributing to his own education.</h1>
<p>Since, as another poster pointed out, this kid chose door #1, we have no idea what might have happened had we chose a different route. I do believe this is a kid who can adjust to anything. I also know that he has a much stronger bond with his school and classmates, two years after graduation, than I ever did with mine. We watched him come into his own at Penn. I have had some regrets, spent some time second-guessing our decision. Gotten frustrated with the school, or the housing, or the this or that along the way. He hasn’t. No regrets at all. Is happily employed as an economist, paying off the debt ahead of schedule.</p>
<p>As I posted earlier, we are on kid#3 this time around. We won’t be following the same path, but we hope to get the same results - a good fit and a great experience, resulting in growth and employment. :)</p>
<p>And that is precisely my point, and the point of this whole thread. But many posters acted as if Vandy WAS Podunk U and that ER should mortgage his future and his soul to attend Yale.</p>
<p>I waited to post this to get an update on a student who turned down prestige for a scholarship: a high achieving African-American girl from Denver who got into Dartmouth with some financial aid… and a full ride to Northeastern. She chose NEU. She is happy. She loves living in the city and loves going to a truly diverse school. (The high school she attended, my D’s school, was diverse but in the high-level accelerated & AP classes she took was considerably whiter/richer than the overall school population.) She feels she made the right decision and I say good for her. She’s only a freshman, so who knows how the rest of her school experience takes shape. Would going to Dartmouth have been a better choice? Dunno. But I do know, she apparently doesn’t even give it a thought.</p>
<p>binx, thanks for posting and thanks for using the list. My one question is :did you find the list helpful, or would you or your kid have found the list helpful at the time you were making the decision?</p>
<p>I don’t know how grading in law school is done these days. I DO know that hiring folks are just as interested in your degree when you apply for subsequent jobs as they are the first time around. Maybe they think it means you can write well, which many lawyers coming out of school today can not. If you want to be well-connected, especially in the law firm world, the state u in the state in which you intend to practice is a good choice, just make sure you do well there.</p>
<p>After spending too much time on this forum for the last couple of years, I have learned that it really is all about the individual circumstances. Cur’s daughter made the exact right choice for her situation and future goals, my son thought he made the right choice, but maybe he didn’t. He went for prestige but also had the athletic complication in there (DI appealed at the time more than DIII). I know a young lady who is headed for law school next year who had the best 4 years of her life at 'bama. If Evil Robot fell in love with Nashville the way I have, his Vandy degree will get him every bit as far as a Yale degree if he wants to stay around this part of the south. There are just SO many factors.</p>
<p>People do feel insecure in their decision precisely because, whether they should or not, they care what others think and they’re not sure how much they should allow that concern to color their decision. We all seem to accept the fact that many people will react differently to someone who attends/attended an elite school than they will to someone who didn’t. That reaction may be positive or it may be negative, it may ebb and flow in importance over time, but it’s definitely a distinct reaction.</p>
<p>Sure, we agree with the oft-repeated CC argument that the same qualities we assume to be possessed by a student at an elite school would be found in the kid who was accepted to an elite but didn’t attend because of money or fit. The only problem is, people won’t necessarily know that said person was offered elite admission but turned it down. Hence the insecurity. Will it be enough that the student and family know this? Worse, some folks may learn of the decision to turn down elite admission and will disrespect it.</p>
<p>Why all of this gets people so riled up is that there will always be some who will confuse the adcoms’ ability to select students with the hallmarks for future worldly and economic success, with the wrong assumption that students with these markers are intrinsically better people than everyone else.</p>
<p>Instead of asking whether a historical figure like Einstein would have been accepted in today’s world, maybe a better question would be “Would Jesus have been accepted at HYPS?” (assuming he would have applied). I don’t know. He did earn a reputation for wisdom and intellect when he discussed the law with the rabbis in the temple. I’d venture a guess that Judas would have been accepted, though. He was smart, ambitious, passionate about his cause, as an EC he could list treasurer of Jesus’ ministry, but you all know the rest of the story.</p>
<p>Yes, Curmudgeon, the list would have been helpful. I remember at the time trying to make sure we were considering all angles, and not getting side-tracked by one issue, or weighting something too heavily one way or another.</p>
<p>After posting my account, I realized that I could have answered, “He could make it work” to just about every question. In fact, I remember my H and I discussing that very thing: He could make it work – But should he have to? I guess my final evaluation would be, whether we lean toward money or academics or social or whatever - how much work would it be, and is that too much?</p>
<p>When I was at Stanford (which was long enough ago that this may be completely different now), there was an enforced median of 2.7 for any class with more than 10 people, and the placement office made a big point of that. It was very clever, though. Very few grades lower than 2.3 were ever given out, so in a large class 1/6, say, would get a C+, 1/3 would get B-, and the other half would be arrayed in a smooth bell curve from B to A, with an occasional A+. But people could elect to take classes pass-fail in most cases, so a fair number of those C+/B- grades didn’t show up in GPA, and lots of students would have most of their grades consist of B-s and Bs, which meant that their GPAs looked “above the median”. No ranks were given out, except there were ways to tell who was in the top 3, and the top 10%. It was a great marketing strategy. </p>
<p>At my former large firm, essentially there were different cut-offs from different law schools. Harvard, they would take almost anyone. Penn, they wanted top half of the class, although that migrated downward as fewer Penn kids stayed in Philadelphia. Villanova, and some of the secondary DC schools, top 10%. Temple, Rutgers, you had to be on law review with a single digit class rank. This was not hard and fast, though, and moved depending on how many people they wanted to hire and what the competitive situation was. 25 years ago, recruiting was limited to Harvard, Penn, and the #1 students at Temple and Villanova. That’s not to say that they wouldn’t hire someone from Yale – if anyone from Yale was interested, or Stanford for that matter, they would do backflips. But hardly anyone ever came through from those schools. Other top schools would be treated as Penn-equivalents.</p>
<p>But this was the snooty, white-shoe, corporate end of the market. And they were happy to take laterals from any school who had proven themselves.</p>
<p>(By the way, someone mentioned working for the DA or U.S. Attorney. Totally different markets. The DA has a lot of people from local law schools; Assistant U.S. Attorneys generally have fancy credentials.)</p>
<p>It’s possible, I suppose, to go to a top-10 (really, top-8 or top-12) law school and do poorly enough to have trouble getting a decent job, but that’s a handful of people at most at any school (and probably none at Yale). In essence, looking for a job from a top law school was like applying to college from Exeter – lots of anxiety about who is going to get into Harvard or Williams and who is going to Tufts or Bates, but really 0 bad outcomes for anyone. Lower-tier law schools are much tougher, because one of their functions in the legal world is to give people a chance to prove themselves, but to weed them out (or at least to tag them) if they don’t.</p>
<p>At every employer, there’s probably an indifference curve among top national schools, secondary national schools, top local schools, and secondary local schools. The #1 student at any school will always get a look. One of the best hires ever at my old firm was a #1 at a secondary local school who was an engineer going to law school at night, and who was easily the intellectual equal of any lawyer in the firm. But if he had been #3 or #4 in his class, we might not have interviewed him in the first place. Someone from the top half of the class at a top law school would get an offer unless there was a recent felony conviction, or unless he or she spit at someone on purpose.</p>
<p>This was all about hiring kids right out of law school or clerkships (or other law world equivalents of post-docs), or laterals with less than two years’ experience. As people have said, the importance of the name on a lawyer’s degree fades with time, although generally people will assume that a brand-name degree holder is smart. And firms, as part of their marketing, may value people with fancy resumes, since that sends a signal to clients that they are high-status, establishment firms.</p>
<p>TheGFG: Haha. I have a feeling Jesus would have opted for a small Christian college somewhere, probably in a town that needed some soul-saving (you know–to continue with his ec’s). ;)</p>
<p>jack - I think Jesus would have shunned a small Christian school and gone off to an urban school that was involved in community out-reach, where he’d have a better fit.</p>
<p>Crumudgeon - as an analytical type, I would find the list to be very helpful. I’m one of those souls who would do a spreadsheet on big decisions - rating pros and cons.<br>
But I also recognize that some of this comes down to gut instinct - what “feels right”. Finding a balance between the list and the gut makes sense.
I also think specific stories are helpful to parents and students going through this decision. Each individual has a unique set of circumstances and needs, yet it helps to understand the factors that need to be considered in each situation.<br>
In our case, it seems the decision was a bit easier for my son since he was NOT accepted to the one Ivy he applied to (Cornell). This took the one school he considered to be "elite’ off the table. So the decision became good schools like Wake, Lehigh and Richmond compared to a good state honors program - PSU (at 1/3 the price). Interesting. I personally found it to still be a tough choice. I tended to like smaller schools. I wanted our S to fight for one of the other schools, ask us to go visit again. Make a case for spending more money. But my son called it a “no brainer” - honors college all the way. He LIKES what a big school has to offer. And he saw a “best of both” worlds scenario at PSU (big bustling place balanced by small honors classes and perks). I guess his choice was a good one - cuz he’s happy now and doing great.
Finally, I DO think SOME of the posts here are helpful. Some are just useless rants too (including some of my posts)-
It would be nice to have a readers digest version of this thread…it’s just too long for the average person to get through.</p>
<p>LOL – this thread has now veered into WWJG?</p>
<p>I think that “list” that’s being built is very valuable, and when this thread finally peters out, should be pulled out and put someplace more accessible. Because most people won’t be willing to wade through 75+ pages to find that advice.</p>
<p>EvilRobot was before my time, but now I understand the Vandy/Yale comparison. I guess I’m not that much of a snob, because I consider Vanderbilt to be in the same elite category as Yale. And in the south, I would imagine Vanderbilt might even be considered more prestigious. Should a consideration of geography and prestige be thrown into the mix? Tufts is prestigious in Boston, but might not hold much weight in Idaho.</p>
Even though it was the exact opposite of what my S1 did. I also know another poster (MOWC) who’s kid chose my kid’s route and isn’t as satisfied. Different kid; different result.</p>