Do top colleges really view being a student rep. on the local school board similar to getting research published or TASP? I never knew that being a student rep. was such a powerful EC.
As a student who got into HYS... and sits on the school board, i think i can answer your question with my experience. i've talked with my interviewer, and a few other people about my stats, and i think my school board record stands out the most (even though i'm an artist, and ranked 3rd in my class, etc.) that is because the school board, especially in a diverse and political city, gave me unique experiences that usually are taken advantage of by adults.
That said, a few examples are that i was part of our nationally recognized movement for healthy foods four years ago (way before it was a national movement), have worked on issues such as desegregation (similar to affirmative action that colleges face), founded a city youth summit (which has been running for three years now) for the promotion of a community of citywide student leaders, and have worked extensively with our notable district officials etc. It has all be an incredible experience, something that I haven't minded attended meetings that have ended 1 a.m. and even later.
As with the above posts, i think that as with any e.c., if one gets thoroughly involved and motivated, one can almost do anything.
See and this becomes an issue for people like me :0
Look, part of the reason that many parts of the nation are underepresented (my part being South Texas) is because these kinds of EC's are ridiculous.
I don't have ANY of your excellent or good EC's. I mean, dangit, I played in the Marching Band. I kind of was a member of Student Council. I did theater, journalism, math...
But I don't have regional awards. (Well, besides SAT/AP/PSAT based ones). (This was at the time of ap, now I'm a State Champion)
I don't have community service where I ran it or funded it. I helped at the doggone nursing home for Christ's sake.
This is the type of mentality that EC's have to be like "superstudent" like to get into Ivy league's that creates severe underrepresentation.
I live in a small rural town in the middle of South Texas, one of the most economically depressed areas of the country, working a full time job (apparently, me being just a worker there isn't good enough. I needed to be a night manager for my EC to be worth a crap) just to pay for bills.
I didn't know about TASP. I didn't know about RSI. I didn't know kids played at freaking Carnegie Hall. Hell, I've said this at least ten times now. If I had known about CC before applying to Yale, I wouldn't have applied.
So, yeah, when I see comments like 'weak EC's", to me, it's like "What the hell? What else do you want me to do?"
You know what makes it sadder? There are thousands of students in areas of the nation that will never apply to the best schools because of fears of dealing with superstudents who live in New England who have every opportunity to do amazing things that students without such opportunities have never even heard about. Yet the saddening fact of that is that they are probably just as qualified.
They just can't do those things.
And as for summer programs, hell, I did one at WNL, which according to people on this site, isn't worth a crap because you can get in with a 24 on the ACT.
To me, I thought that was the epitome of awesomeness. If only I had known about TASP.
I hear you. I came from a very difficult background, left school early, and am now at Stanford. I didn't know any of these things existed, either, not so much because of an economically depressed area as economically (and otherwise) depressed parents.
I think those of us who have overcome huge obstacles should have a special post: Who got into HPYSMC without any help whatsoever?
NorthstarmomRegistered UserPosts: 24,853Senior Member
A reminder that this is what I said that applies to those who aren't in large urban areas:
"Consequently, more will be expected of a student who is from a part of the country like the urban Northeast than a student who is from an underrepresented part of the country. Also, more would be expected of a student from an excellent school, affluent family in an urban area with lots of opportunities than would be expected of a low income student in an isolated, unsophisticated rural village. "
Still, if one is applying to Harvard from, for instance, an isolated rural area, to be competitive, one still would be expected to have not only scores/grades that are within Harvard's range, but you also would be expected to demonstrate leadership and other things that indicated that you took advantage of your home environment.
If you live on a farm and have to help out there, then perhaps you could stand out in admission for having raised award-winning livestock.
If you have to help out in your immigrant family's shop in the inner city, perhaps you also would have started a tutoring program at your church to help other immigrant kids do well in school or maybe you would be the only teen at your church who is teaching Sunday school.
Anyway, you would not be expected to do things that someone would have time and the opportunity to do if they came from a well off family and attended a school with many extracurricular options and has their own a car to be able to get to activities.
If, however, you are basically getting high grades, but aren't doing anything else but studying, you would not stand out in the pool because your lack of any nonacademic activities would pale beside those of students from similar backgrounds who are working to help their families, taking on top leadership positions in their churches and schools and/or helping out at home by taking care of sibs and elderly relatives while their parents work.
If you check CC's archives, there was a post last Dec. or so by a white male from rural Virginia who got in EA despite having scores that were much lower than Harvard's average (though still were high enough to indicate that he could do the work at Harvard -- typically that means an 1800 minimum new SAT), and who also didn't have the kind of ECs that I described earlier as outstanding.
He was, however, outstanding in his environment, and I'm sure that Harvard took that into account by admitting him EA while deferring and ultimately rejecting many other students who came from more affluent, sophisticated areas and had higher scores, more impressive ECs and probably more polished applications due to their GC's sophistication and their parents' being able to afford consultants.
Students who also have gotten good grades and scores despite overcoming major challenges such as being homeless, a foster child, etc. also have are given credit for what they have done. Such people aren't expected to also have the kind of ECs, grades and scores that students do who have lots of advantages. They still are, however, expected to have grades and scores that indicate that they can do the work at a place like a top university.
Finally, I do need to emphasize that one can be disadvantaged and do the things that I mentioned and still not get into a place like HPYS, which are reaches for everyone. Similarly, one can be affluent and have outstanding ECs, grades and scores, but still be rejected. Most people who apply to places like HPYS qualify for admission. There is not space for all, so the determining factors may end up being things that you have no control over like where you live or whether the admission officers went over your application just after accepting someone very similar to you.
NorthstarmomRegistered UserPosts: 24,853Senior Member
"Well, I did something that was quite unprecedented: I asked the directors if I could recruit musicians for the pit and rehearse them as well. It would consist of entirely student musicians (except for the vocal director on keyboards) and I ended up conducting the production in my SOPHOMORE year. With more experience, I did the same thing in my junior year. Because I had some matters during my senior year that took up a lot of my time, I abdicated from the position, and that year, the vocal director conducted from the piano. The pit however, was still comprised of student. I continued to do some backstage work for the production that took less time so I was able to dedicate more time to what I needed to do that year.
My point is, a fulfilling and "decent" activity need not be outside of your own high school. "
Yes, that is exactly right, and that is a wonderful example of an outstanding EC that was done at the local level because of one students' creativity, leadership, hard work and determination.
Does this mean that the student will get into HPYS? I have no clue because as mentioned before, such universities have an overabundance of excellent applicants. I would rate, however, such an EC as being the equivalent of a 2400 SAT, and, frankly far rarer than are 2400 SATs in top colleges' pools.
If the student who did that activity managed to do it while maintaining a rigorous courseload, high gpa, and excellent SAT scores, s/he is far ahead of most other students in the top college admission pools. The rare students who are able to take on the kind of leadership that the poster describe typically do such things while ignoring their schoolwork, so even if they're smart enough to have high test scores, they typically have mediocre grades. They are outstanding at doing things they like; terrible at doing things that they find boring, which typically are academics. The top universities want the students who can take on major leadership while also maintaining high academics in whatever rigorous curriculum their school offers.
Most students spend far too much time obsessing over raising already high SAT scores a few more points that won't impress colleges that much. If the HPYS wannabes instead took the same amount of time pursuing their interests and passions with leadership and creativity, they'd be boosting their chances to get into the most competitive colleges. What those colleges want are students who'll be active participants taking strong leadership in the campus environment, not just drones studying in the library, and the way that the adcoms identify such potential students is by seeing what students have done with ECs, jobs and similar activities.
The colleges want to produce alum who eventually will be leaders in communities, nations, corporations, foundations, etc., not people who just do whatever they think will impress their bosses.
NorthstarmomRegistered UserPosts: 24,853Senior Member
"I don't have community service where I ran it or funded it. I helped at the doggone nursing home for Christ's sake."
There's nothing wrong with helping at a nursing home. That could stand out in admissions if one implemented some programs or did something that went beyond simply putting in hours and doing what you were told.
When one volunteers, there are always opportunities to do extra and one can find or make those opportunities if you care about what you're doing, look for ways to make an additional difference, and take the time to establish relationships with your supervisors so that they are willing to let you try out your own ideas. Doing this is difficult and requires vision, creativity and hard work, but those are the kind of leaders that places like HPYS want on their campus even though HPYS don't have room for everyone who does things like that.
It makes me sick how "Eagle Scout" is ranked up there with creating your own bussiness that makes thousands of dollars, and all of those other mind blowingly amazing ECs. I've watched my brother go through Scouts, and sure, you've got to be in it for years, but the work he puts in? Pretty much none. Maybe he goes to boyscout camp. LOL. Obviously there are very involved scouts, but getting Eagle is just waiting it out. And the service projects they organize are usually pretty weak. Like I said, sure, there are cool ones. But, one Eagle Scout in my area made a bench to put outside the school! A bench!
I was in a leadership program that lasted a couple months, and I was able to pull off a project that had way more weight than most of the Eagle Scout deals I see. It's kinda sad, actually, how I see kids getting Eagle Scout at 13 and building a fence or some other piece of lame crap.
Northstarmom, where do you put the information about the level of your involvement in the application? Is it something that should somehow be put into an essay (even if it doesn't really seem to fit)? or should the applicant put it in the resume (which would lead to a wordy, probably 2 pager)? My S has some pretty good ec's, but doesn't really know where to describe them beyond a seemingly non-descript volunteer position.
NorthstarmomRegistered UserPosts: 24,853Senior Member
Remember, the list represents my thoughts, and I'm not an adcom, just an alum interviewer.
There actually is a list on the web somewhere that shows how a Calif. college weighed various ECs. This includes the standard ECs as well as "ECs" such as having to take care of siblings or having work to help one's family.
If anyone finds it, please post a link because I'm sure it would help many people.
NorthstarmomRegistered UserPosts: 24,853Senior Member
Here's a link to teens who won the 2006 Huggable Heroes contests for teens who do service projects. Most of the teens started projects themselves. All are nice ideas of how young people can make a difference and can also have some extraordinary ECs. http://www.buildabear.com/aboutUs/community/HuggableHeroes/2006HH.aspx
Some examples:
Matthew - New York
Matt volunteers for Puppies Behind Bars, an organization that trains inmates to raise guide dogs for the blind and explosive detection canines for Law Enforcement. He takes their pups into his home and exposes them to situations they cannot encounter in prison. Through a youth service-based organization, Matt also spearheaded a fundraising raffle for the benefit of Puppies Behind Bars. It raised over $1,000 for the cause.
Brittany - British Columbia
For the last 8 years, Britney has played an active role in her community by helping feed the less fortunate, volunteering at the police department and raising money for the Easter Seals Organization. Brittany recently created a Scholarship Seminar where she visits local secondary schools to help educate students about the many facets of scholarship applications and how the students can apply for such assistance
When I read the Chances threads and see the EC's, I think the biggest weakness is the lack of focus. I see kids that say they are interested in pre-med, but all thier EC's are in the field of math because there are a lot of math competitions. While this is still outstanding, I think a focused list of EC's that complement an applicants strength is important. EC's are what you do in your "free time" so getting involved in EC's that interest you would look good.
A trend that I see is that debate and writing competitions are looked highly upon as far as EC's go.
NorthstarmomRegistered UserPosts: 24,853Senior Member
Under "community service" in the essay, or in the activities area. It also could go under leadership or even in 2 or 3 sections, with different aspects highlighted in different areas.
For example under leadership: "Organized a campaign to raise $1,000 for...."
And also under "community service," the same person could write: "Spent 6 months housing and training dogs for ....."
That combined with a nice essay describing how one got interested in it or a challenge that one overcame in doing the project would be a nice way to show one's character and passion.
Where you put the activities isn't as important as how you describe what you did. The adcoms aren't grading you on filling the right slot. They just want to know what you've done and what you have to offer.
Replies to: "Those ECs are weak...."- So what's good?
As a student who got into HYS... and sits on the school board, i think i can answer your question with my experience. i've talked with my interviewer, and a few other people about my stats, and i think my school board record stands out the most (even though i'm an artist, and ranked 3rd in my class, etc.) that is because the school board, especially in a diverse and political city, gave me unique experiences that usually are taken advantage of by adults.
That said, a few examples are that i was part of our nationally recognized movement for healthy foods four years ago (way before it was a national movement), have worked on issues such as desegregation (similar to affirmative action that colleges face), founded a city youth summit (which has been running for three years now) for the promotion of a community of citywide student leaders, and have worked extensively with our notable district officials etc. It has all be an incredible experience, something that I haven't minded attended meetings that have ended 1 a.m. and even later.
As with the above posts, i think that as with any e.c., if one gets thoroughly involved and motivated, one can almost do anything.
Look, part of the reason that many parts of the nation are underepresented (my part being South Texas) is because these kinds of EC's are ridiculous.
I don't have ANY of your excellent or good EC's. I mean, dangit, I played in the Marching Band. I kind of was a member of Student Council. I did theater, journalism, math...
But I don't have regional awards. (Well, besides SAT/AP/PSAT based ones). (This was at the time of ap, now I'm a State Champion)
I don't have community service where I ran it or funded it. I helped at the doggone nursing home for Christ's sake.
This is the type of mentality that EC's have to be like "superstudent" like to get into Ivy league's that creates severe underrepresentation.
I live in a small rural town in the middle of South Texas, one of the most economically depressed areas of the country, working a full time job (apparently, me being just a worker there isn't good enough. I needed to be a night manager for my EC to be worth a crap) just to pay for bills.
I didn't know about TASP. I didn't know about RSI. I didn't know kids played at freaking Carnegie Hall. Hell, I've said this at least ten times now. If I had known about CC before applying to Yale, I wouldn't have applied.
So, yeah, when I see comments like 'weak EC's", to me, it's like "What the hell? What else do you want me to do?"
You know what makes it sadder? There are thousands of students in areas of the nation that will never apply to the best schools because of fears of dealing with superstudents who live in New England who have every opportunity to do amazing things that students without such opportunities have never even heard about. Yet the saddening fact of that is that they are probably just as qualified.
They just can't do those things.
And as for summer programs, hell, I did one at WNL, which according to people on this site, isn't worth a crap because you can get in with a 24 on the ACT.
To me, I thought that was the epitome of awesomeness. If only I had known about TASP.
Yeah, and they say life is fair.
I hear you. I came from a very difficult background, left school early, and am now at Stanford. I didn't know any of these things existed, either, not so much because of an economically depressed area as economically (and otherwise) depressed parents.
I think those of us who have overcome huge obstacles should have a special post: Who got into HPYSMC without any help whatsoever?
"Consequently, more will be expected of a student who is from a part of the country like the urban Northeast than a student who is from an underrepresented part of the country. Also, more would be expected of a student from an excellent school, affluent family in an urban area with lots of opportunities than would be expected of a low income student in an isolated, unsophisticated rural village. "
Still, if one is applying to Harvard from, for instance, an isolated rural area, to be competitive, one still would be expected to have not only scores/grades that are within Harvard's range, but you also would be expected to demonstrate leadership and other things that indicated that you took advantage of your home environment.
If you live on a farm and have to help out there, then perhaps you could stand out in admission for having raised award-winning livestock.
If you have to help out in your immigrant family's shop in the inner city, perhaps you also would have started a tutoring program at your church to help other immigrant kids do well in school or maybe you would be the only teen at your church who is teaching Sunday school.
Anyway, you would not be expected to do things that someone would have time and the opportunity to do if they came from a well off family and attended a school with many extracurricular options and has their own a car to be able to get to activities.
If, however, you are basically getting high grades, but aren't doing anything else but studying, you would not stand out in the pool because your lack of any nonacademic activities would pale beside those of students from similar backgrounds who are working to help their families, taking on top leadership positions in their churches and schools and/or helping out at home by taking care of sibs and elderly relatives while their parents work.
If you check CC's archives, there was a post last Dec. or so by a white male from rural Virginia who got in EA despite having scores that were much lower than Harvard's average (though still were high enough to indicate that he could do the work at Harvard -- typically that means an 1800 minimum new SAT), and who also didn't have the kind of ECs that I described earlier as outstanding.
He was, however, outstanding in his environment, and I'm sure that Harvard took that into account by admitting him EA while deferring and ultimately rejecting many other students who came from more affluent, sophisticated areas and had higher scores, more impressive ECs and probably more polished applications due to their GC's sophistication and their parents' being able to afford consultants.
Students who also have gotten good grades and scores despite overcoming major challenges such as being homeless, a foster child, etc. also have are given credit for what they have done. Such people aren't expected to also have the kind of ECs, grades and scores that students do who have lots of advantages. They still are, however, expected to have grades and scores that indicate that they can do the work at a place like a top university.
Finally, I do need to emphasize that one can be disadvantaged and do the things that I mentioned and still not get into a place like HPYS, which are reaches for everyone. Similarly, one can be affluent and have outstanding ECs, grades and scores, but still be rejected. Most people who apply to places like HPYS qualify for admission. There is not space for all, so the determining factors may end up being things that you have no control over like where you live or whether the admission officers went over your application just after accepting someone very similar to you.
My point is, a fulfilling and "decent" activity need not be outside of your own high school. "
Yes, that is exactly right, and that is a wonderful example of an outstanding EC that was done at the local level because of one students' creativity, leadership, hard work and determination.
Does this mean that the student will get into HPYS? I have no clue because as mentioned before, such universities have an overabundance of excellent applicants. I would rate, however, such an EC as being the equivalent of a 2400 SAT, and, frankly far rarer than are 2400 SATs in top colleges' pools.
If the student who did that activity managed to do it while maintaining a rigorous courseload, high gpa, and excellent SAT scores, s/he is far ahead of most other students in the top college admission pools. The rare students who are able to take on the kind of leadership that the poster describe typically do such things while ignoring their schoolwork, so even if they're smart enough to have high test scores, they typically have mediocre grades. They are outstanding at doing things they like; terrible at doing things that they find boring, which typically are academics. The top universities want the students who can take on major leadership while also maintaining high academics in whatever rigorous curriculum their school offers.
Most students spend far too much time obsessing over raising already high SAT scores a few more points that won't impress colleges that much. If the HPYS wannabes instead took the same amount of time pursuing their interests and passions with leadership and creativity, they'd be boosting their chances to get into the most competitive colleges. What those colleges want are students who'll be active participants taking strong leadership in the campus environment, not just drones studying in the library, and the way that the adcoms identify such potential students is by seeing what students have done with ECs, jobs and similar activities.
The colleges want to produce alum who eventually will be leaders in communities, nations, corporations, foundations, etc., not people who just do whatever they think will impress their bosses.
There's nothing wrong with helping at a nursing home. That could stand out in admissions if one implemented some programs or did something that went beyond simply putting in hours and doing what you were told.
When one volunteers, there are always opportunities to do extra and one can find or make those opportunities if you care about what you're doing, look for ways to make an additional difference, and take the time to establish relationships with your supervisors so that they are willing to let you try out your own ideas. Doing this is difficult and requires vision, creativity and hard work, but those are the kind of leaders that places like HPYS want on their campus even though HPYS don't have room for everyone who does things like that.
I was in a leadership program that lasted a couple months, and I was able to pull off a project that had way more weight than most of the Eagle Scout deals I see. It's kinda sad, actually, how I see kids getting Eagle Scout at 13 and building a fence or some other piece of lame crap.
i hope colleges start to see that
and i don't think it's fair either. the boy scouts discriminate against homosexuals.
There actually is a list on the web somewhere that shows how a Calif. college weighed various ECs. This includes the standard ECs as well as "ECs" such as having to take care of siblings or having work to help one's family.
If anyone finds it, please post a link because I'm sure it would help many people.
Some examples:
Matthew - New York
Matt volunteers for Puppies Behind Bars, an organization that trains inmates to raise guide dogs for the blind and explosive detection canines for Law Enforcement. He takes their pups into his home and exposes them to situations they cannot encounter in prison. Through a youth service-based organization, Matt also spearheaded a fundraising raffle for the benefit of Puppies Behind Bars. It raised over $1,000 for the cause.
Brittany - British Columbia
For the last 8 years, Britney has played an active role in her community by helping feed the less fortunate, volunteering at the police department and raising money for the Easter Seals Organization. Brittany recently created a Scholarship Seminar where she visits local secondary schools to help educate students about the many facets of scholarship applications and how the students can apply for such assistance
A trend that I see is that debate and writing competitions are looked highly upon as far as EC's go.
For example under leadership: "Organized a campaign to raise $1,000 for...."
And also under "community service," the same person could write: "Spent 6 months housing and training dogs for ....."
That combined with a nice essay describing how one got interested in it or a challenge that one overcame in doing the project would be a nice way to show one's character and passion.
Where you put the activities isn't as important as how you describe what you did. The adcoms aren't grading you on filling the right slot. They just want to know what you've done and what you have to offer.