0.1% vs 1% kids: what did you do differently?

Parents Forum
21

^ I too have a son (S23) who is >> 99.9th percentile; like the OP’s S23, he also has some executive functioning issues, and has been diagnosed with a Central Auditory Processing disorder, for which he wears a customized filter and has some recommendations for school accomodations. He goes to a GT magnet and is followed by a “support team”. He is strong academically overall but quite “pointy” in several areas and off the charts in a couple (especially in terms of artistic ability and engineering/fabrication/design), so his situation seems a bit different from the OP’s case; my experience is that dealing with any of these > 99.9th percentile kids requires extremely individual attention and adjustments.

In my son’s case, we’ve found regular schooling to be a challenge but to be beneficial in terms of developing socialization skills and learning to function in a broader environment (“raising the whole kid”, to use @calmom’s term). My son has met the qualifying criteria for programs like SET and Davidson, but we haven’t applied - I was quite interested in them when he was younger, but as he matures I see less and less benefit. I do a lot of supplemental “homeschooling”, acceleration/enrichment, and support for advanced ECs, all on top of his regular schooling.

For math, I would agree that AoPS is a great resource, and would also strongly suggest looking at the IMACS math and computer science online courses, which provide enrichment as well as acceleration. The EMF course in particular builds a rigorous foundation which introduces abstract algebra by middle school level. My son had done AoPS algebra I in 5th grade, but found the eIMACS EMF courses challenging and fun. He is also doing their Univeristy-level computer science courses. They have a very different approach from AoPS, which is very focused on problem solving and competition math.

I agree with @sbjdorlo that finding the right school and advocating is critical, and is an ongoing challenge. Homeschooling may work well for some, but not for others. Every situation is so different, both in terms of the child and in terms of the resources and options availalble. Acceleration works well in many cases but can leave gaps. Programs like Stanford OHS can work well, but are fairly structured and could be challenging for someone with EF issues, even if they are intellectually suitable. Early college programs work well in some cases, but often social development lags behind intellectual development. Pushing a highly pointy kid who is highly accelerated in mainly math and who also has EF issues too quickly could be tricky, to say the least.

Testing can be very useful to document abilities and identify confounding factors (it was testing which led to my son’s Auditory Processing Disorder being developed). The Gifted Development Center in Westminster, Colorado has the largest data base of highly gifted children in the world, and 30 years experience identifying and advocating for such individuals; testing is expensive, but can be well worth it (and is also important if you do want to apply to Davidson Young Scholars, as they require documented testing).

@Twoin18 , good luck, and feel free to PM.

22

Well, I was just sharing the reason my son chose not to pursue math in college, not giving advice beyond the fact that what your son seems most talented in or motivated at age 12 or 13 may not be the same as what moves him at 15 or 18 or 25.

Academics are important – but life skills are more important - because that impacts life outside of an academic environment as well … and it also can impact the ability of a person to hold down a job or advance in a career in areas where they are highly talented and capable. (Even a brilliant math PHD teaching in a college is going to have to meet various external expectations to earn tenure). So it is one thing to recognize the existence of EF problems in terms of short-term planning; but it’s something different to view those issues as being intractable and put more effort into planning around them instead of focusing on ways to strengthen the problem areas.

I mean-- if you had a middle school kid with terrific organizational skills who struggled with math in school – you’d wouldn’t decide that math doesn’t matter. I think you’d recognize “working to improve math” as something that was needed, perhaps arranging math tutoring, etc, even if you might also be hearing feedback from others to the effect about all the ways your non-mathy kid would be able to compensate in life without much math. It’s not that you would have any doubt that human beings can manage pretty well these days without sophisticated math knowledge; it’s just that as a parent of a school-age child, you’d probably want to at least encourage an effort at attaining greater math profiiciency.

So you’ve got a 7th grader who is exceptionally strong in math… but has an array of organizational/functional skills that are problems for him now, andcound potentially become bigger problems in the future. I understand what that is – that’s the reason my son took 7 years to get a college degree rather than the typical 4. There is only so much guiding and hand-holding a parent can do … sooner or later it’s time for the kid to be launched and on his own, and if following through and completing tasks on time is a problem, then it is a problem that can continue to cause problems through life.

Some of it is a process of maturity – some things just get better over time with or without specific intervention or planning. But there is still a balance to be struck – a line between being encouraging & supportive vs. being indulgent. There are things that can be done to address weaknesses earlier vs. simply deferring unaddressed problems until later or hoping they go away on their own.

I don’t have answers for you – just perhaps a more balanced perspective, coupled with hindsight.

I’m a little confused by another comment you made:

Where do you live now? And why the dual goals of US/UK?

23

@calmom Yes, not trying to get him out of being able to write etc, or come to any conclusion about what he will or won’t want to do in the future. I pretty much write for a living, that’s what doing a PhD taught me. My son definitely needs to work on his challenges, that’s one reason why going to college early is not going to happen.

We moved to NorCal before the kids were born, but my wife and I both went to Cambridge. And the ability to specialize in the UK school and university system seems better matched to his skills than the broader US system (as it was for me). We are open to either for college, the kids all have dual nationality so it’s easy either way (and actually quite cheap in the UK).

But I know what top end UK math preparation is like because I had it in school, and it’s way beyond what US high schools teach. I worry when I hear people here describe the Cambridge STEP exams as impossibly difficult, because they aren’t for a UK math kid. Figuring out how to be competitive in those exams is something we’d need to do if he’s going to get in there: I realized with S18 that Oxford doesn’t think much of US qualifications.

24

Have you looked into AoPS? https://artofproblemsolving.com/school/catalog It is doubtful that it is “lesser” than anything you did. AoPS is fabulous for mathy kids. Kids like my ds who want more theory in their math instruction love it. The course go way beyond standard courses. The forums are great for math geeky kids

25

@Mom2aphysicsgeek Yes, we are just finding out about those sorts of things. One of the difficulties is that he’s been pretty tired after school from just addressing the challenging subjects (and general EF stuff) that taking on more outside school is not something he’s enthused about. Hopefully that will improve but it means the amount of time spent per subject becomes an issue. In the UK we spent 4-5 hours per day just doing math and physics for A-level, here you still have to cover a broad range of subjects throughout high school. I can see how a US kid might spend that amount of time if they can do other subjects easily and are very dedicated to finding extra time for math, but at least for the moment that’s not my son.

26

"But I know what top end UK math preparation is like because I had it in school, and it’s way beyond what US high schools teach. I worry when I hear people here describe the Cambridge STEP exams as impossibly difficult, because they aren’t for a UK math kid. Figuring out how to be competitive in those exams is something we’d need to do if he’s going to get in there: I realized with S18 that Oxford doesn’t think much of US qualifications. "

Pretty much every member of the US International Math Olympiad team studied through AoPS/WOOT over the last few years, and the US has finished in the top 3 for 7 straight years. I’m pretty comfortable positing that it won’t be beneath what’s needed for a 7th grader :wink:

[UK averaged 18th ;)]

27

@RichInPitt Completely understand. Not a question of the level, just an issue of available time and motivation/energy as noted above. It’s going to require a lot of thought and planning to be able to both work on his challenges and include time for these kinds of “extras”

28

My older son at 12 is exactly the same at 29. My younger son not so much.

29

paging @HazeGrey, whose son is doing Math & CompSci at Oxford right now, and may have some useful comments about US prep for UK* maths.

There is so much helpful advice here already, I’ll just add a couple of pieces:

  1. don’t forget the miracle of maturity. A lot of EF/ADD/etc challenges ease up towards late HS/early uni. I know it’s a long way away, but as somebody who tried every.single.approach out there with one of her kids, none of which seemed to make any discernable difference, the pieces did finally fall into place.

  2. the gift of the UK university option is wonderful for your son, because it gives you the flexibility to re-invent his HS experience as needed to work with what he needs. Make sure you know what he needs to get his HS diploma, and meet the pre-reqs for US colleges that he might surprise you by being interested in- and then freelance it. Start at whatever HS whose principal you like (b/c that is the key to success!), and go from there, starting with

  3. all of the enrichment options that other posters have listed above. Middle school is wearing on all sorts of levels- find out if HS is as wearing. Once out from under the pettiness of MS (and it’s not just the students who can be petty- the teachers can be as well!), he may come home with more energy. We mixed and matched lots of CTY/TIP/CC/etc options, which also had the benefit of being around other kids who share similar interests at a similar level.

*no snark from The Other Place about maths from that Place Up The River, either!! :wink:

30

During middle school years, at parents’ meetings, I used to say they mainly need to eat and sleep :slight_smile: They are growing and changing and their brains are being deconstructed…

I wonder what plan you have set up for accommodations at middle school and if the plan could be improved. Any IEP or 504? What evaluations have been done? Has he seen a psychiatrist who is really good with these issues, and tried any medications as yet?

We had a different situation, with a chronically ill kid who is also intellectually and musically talented, and ended up at a very selective college, now doing a doctorate. We thought many times of changing schools, doing private, homeschooling etc. but the answer was eventually consultation with a lawyer who knew educational issues, and getting the right plan in place. Just mentioning the lawyer (as “helpful”, not adversarial) got us a lot more cooperation. Didn’t even have to bring the lawyer to a meeting, just paid for that one hour in the office.

We did use online courses and there are some good ones.

Right now, your son hasn’t exceeded the math provided in school- is that right? If that is true, then I would focus first on getting accommodations in place that are truly helpful, for ADHD and EF issues. That means full diagnostic evaluation, which you have probably done a bunch of meetings and enlisting legal help or an advocate. It pays off to do this in middle school so the transition to high school is easier.

31

You could look at techy schools with EF support…e.g. https://www.rit.edu/studentaffairs/ssp/

32

Responding to @collegemom3717 page. My son didn’t do anything that far out of the ordinary in terms of his math work preceding Oxford. He has always been a talented math student but was only accelerated by a year at his school. He did some of the AOPS short prep classes for the AMC/AIME, but had no interest in WOOT. One of the two time IMO US medalists is from our neighborhood and was a year ahead of my son in elementary school. He saw what that boy was doing to develop his abilities to that level and didn’t want to make that same sacrifice/commitment. He did AP BC as a junior and the Stanford OSx MVC class as a senior. He was very active on his school’s math team and did a lot of prep for that as well as some for the three ARML competitions that he qualified for. His only real preparation for the MAT was just doing past papers.

First year has been OK for him and I think he would put himself in the middle of the pack of his math peers at Oxford.

33

Lots of good advice so far about addressing the ADHD /EF issues. I will add my own experience.

As a parent of a smart ADHD kid (but not PG or anything), I can attest that the regular public school schedule was exhausting for my son. His EF skills were marginal , and slogging through the coursework consumed much of his time.We both work, and kid is quite social, so homeschooling was not an option, even though that would have been optimal for him. He likes computers and he did robotics for EC’s. He is doing well in college , primarily due to the schedule and focusing in his area of interest - computers. He continues to see a private coach for his writing skills.

You may first need to address his EF skills , writing skills etc. and how he is going to get through high school. It looks like homeschooling may not be a possibility(?) I second the idea about Davidson institute - worth a look. PG kids are so rare that even GT programs may not have had a PG child cross their paths.

Can you afford a private coach/therapist to work on his EF skills? Has his doctor indicated medication? Poor writing is a consequence of poor EF skills. Also, as he gets older , maturity will kick in. But with ADHD kids, the trajectory to maturity is a little longer than for neurotypical kids (this seems to be independent of intelligence - you can google Russell Barkley’s work in this field).
The AoPS classes and other extra stuff may be possible once he gets into some sort of rhythm with his high school coursework. But I would agree with the other posts that addressing the ADHD issues is the most important now.

34

I like the approach @tdy123 described in post #5: enrich in the strong areas (e.g., math for your son), while doing an all-out push to develop the weak areas (writing and EF). Boys often grow a lot in EF during the high school years, but if he doesn’t get up to at least average sort of level on writing and EF, realistically that’s likely to really limit his opportunities to access education suitable in his areas of strength.

I would not consider full-time early college enrollment for a kid with EF issues; I’d only consider early college for a kid with well above-average EF! However, if he’s cooperative and willing to work with you on being “checked up on”, I’d look into dual enrollment while in high school in a couple of college classes (only one per semester!) that really interest him. Many California community college districts allow dual enrollment (though some are more rigid than others about student age), or if you have a university nearby and your son “runs out” of high school math courses, see if he could at least audit a university math course. Note that individual professors may be more receptive to this than your son’s school or university administrators.

Others have made good suggestions about supplementing math. And I hope you’ll get some further suggestions on how to advocate for more EF scaffolding/help from his school, and on what you could do on the home front to help.

As far as writing goes, I know getting boys to set down their video games is like amputating a limb – but try and get him doing some meaningful reading – as I believe it’s hard to be a good writer without first having done a lot of reading. Your local librarians probably have good suggestions for high-interest but enriching books.

Finally, and this is a long way off, but one more college idea especially since you’re in California: take a look at UC Santa Barbara’s Center for Creative Studies. From the (little) I’ve heard about it, it’s an intriguing option for a “pointy” kid – sometimes described as “graduate school for undergraduates”, or perhaps more similar to UK style. Students I think get various privileges, including personal mentoring and skipping many GE requirements, as the goal is to move them as quickly as possible into higher level courses and individual research. But a kid does have to get accepted to UCSB first, and that’s where your kid needs to be at an acceptable level even in high school courses that don’t interest him; while UCSB isn’t the hardest UC to get into, nevertheless, according to their 2017-2018 Common Data Set, the average GPA for UCSB incoming freshmen was 4.08.

35

@veronite Thank you, this is in line with our current thinking. He does read a lot (basically all the time when he has run out of video game time) and his last reading test level was 12.9 (i.e. end of 12th grade). But he usually prefers factual stuff to novels - he will literally read encyclopedias cover to cover. So he’s great to take to a pub quiz :slight_smile:

36

I have a middle schooler who tests above the 99.9th percentile, with lots of EF Issues, suspected (well, confirmed really, but undiagnosed for reasons) ADHD, other mild spectrumy stuff, though (officially confirmed, that one) not on the spectrum. Oxford or Cambridge are a definite aim, possibly with some US reaches thrown in for a lark. Local schools (we live in continental Europe) would be safeties, but not a good fit.

One thing you all have to remember that you get exactly ONE shot at either Oxford or Cambridge. If it doesn’t work out, you just don’t click with the interviewer, the intake at the targeted college happens to be exceptionally strong that year, there isn’t really a good alternative in the UK system. Warwick maybe, some London unis possibly, but it’s not like in the US where you can basically mix and match among the top 20 universities and LACs for fit.

I would assume that a 5 in calcBC (plus the required number of other AP 5s, depending on which river you aim for) would be enough to meet the minimum requirement for school level qualifications. If a student couldn’t produce a further maths A level (and a lot of international applicants couldn’t) I would assume that they’d take a very hard look at the MAT, or PAT, or whatever subject he ends up going for. That one is predictable, because you got the old tests, and can be prepared for. I believe they wouldn’t really take dual enrolment classes into account because you don’t have a standardised test at the end of it.

I am also a humanities person and I have this idea that with a very mathy person, it isn’t so much training and exposure to content that counts in the way it does with writing intensive subjects or foreign languages, but simply the doing…though I may be totally wrong about this.

I would like to add that I feel that insisting on exercise (I must have the least athletic kid on the planet that doesn’t actually have a physical disability so I know it can be HARD) helps with the ADHD and EF stuff, he’s so much more relaxed and organised when he gets his movement in. So, a lot of after school energy goes into that. I also insist on music, which is actually an area of some strength, though his interest and talent are not on any level beyond the recreational, but it does help with confidence and social integration, and sometimes with relaxation (important for the very high strung among those kids, and they tend to be). And I try to facilitate getting together with friends as much as i can (some social struggles as well, but thank god no real bullying or isolation, just no really good friends either).

It doesn’t leave much time or energy for targeted enrichment in his real strengths. The gifted program at the school enters the kids in a lot of competitions, mostly math, and he tends to effortlessly advance to state or multi-state level, but not beyond to national level. I have a feeling that if the school bothered to actually teach at the advanced level some of the kids in the gifted program could handle, this might look different, but they don’t accelerate them beyond the (already somewhat accelerated) college prep curriculum, designed for the 70th percentile and above, and a number of kids in that program, mine among them, just cruise, intellectually speaking. EF is a totally different matter, and it just seems to suck the energy right out of some kids.

It’s hard to know when to push. If you feel that school just doesn’t leave enough energy to do more, maybe let it go for a couple years, and focus on working at his weaknesses, as others have suggested. As far as the qualification for UK courses go, you might want to reach out to your old college to find out just what they’d require from a US kid to at least advance as far as the interview.

37

Thanks @Tigerle. Definitely agree with much of the above re S23. But I think I’d qualify as a “very mathy” person ;), and I’d disagree that “it isn’t so much training and exposure to content that counts in the way it does with writing intensive subjects or foreign languages, but simply the doing”. There are a vast number of techniques to learn and that’s what the training and exposure to content is critical for. It takes a lot of time. But great mathematicians (I’ve seen a number of them and I’m not one) can apply those techniques in an unexpected way to a new problem. That’s why the long tail of ability is quite so long.

There often isn’t much “doing” about it, especially in pure math, its the flash of inspiration that counts (unlike in humanities where you usually need to go and research stuff and then write for a long time to explain your thoughts). And often, most of the rest of your time you aren’t actively “doing” work on the problem, it just sits there at the back of your mind.

A friend at college (now a math professor at Oxford) used to say that you needed 2 hours of inspiration in 3 years to get a math PhD, so I used to keep track of my “minutes of inspiration” during my PhD (I don’t think it ever got up to 2 hours total, but then my PhD wasn’t going to win a fellowship) - I did most of it in the bath, with the critical bit done while I was rowing at Henley. It was quite helpful to have 10 fingers and 10 toes available for the key proof by induction :))

38

The father of the young man that @sbjdorlo wrote about shared his process with a group that we are both part of. Iirc, his ds had to take the STEP exam. https://www.maths.cam.ac.uk/undergrad/admissions/step

39

@Twoin18 , I think we are sort of talking about the same thing, only you, being a mathy person, are describing it so much better! I also realised that I was kind of contradicting myself, ruminating about why my kid appears to succeed so effortlessly up to a certain point but not beyond. It was too late to edit, though. So I think he might be lacking the exposure to the techniques you are talking about. I am not choosing to make an issue of it at this point. I might by high school.

The question remains whether the highest math class at whatever high school your kid might be going to will suffice to teach the minimum in techniques that he needs, to succeed in the MAT, the interview, and beyond. I probably shouldn’t even attempt to have an opinion about that one. I imagine tutors at both Oxford and Cambridge do.

It’s hard work, raising these kids.

40

@Twoin18 what you describe in post 36 is the type of deep thinking that AoPS promotes. My ds would walk around for days contemplating some problems. He might go outside for a run and come inside and jot down some notes, go off and do other things and then come back and write down more. The challenge problems are meant to be contemplated and wrestled with, not just solved.

Fwiw, it is proof based math.