0.1% vs 1% kids: what did you do differently?

Parents Forum
1

We’ve just been through a pretty successful admissions process with S18 and D18. They are typical 1% kids, 4.0UW GPA, top 1-2% in their HS class, strong across the board, with good test scores, almost all 5s in their 9-10 APs and good ECs, very self-motivated. They went through normal public schools (as the youngest in their grade but not accelerated) and were admitted to many great schools (Berkeley, UCLA, etc, but not Princeton or Oxford).

But although it’s still a long way away, I look at this process with much more trepidation for S23 who we all know is much smarter, very much the 0.1% kid in math, but with far less across the board strength - he has ADHD and struggles with writing and executive functioning (organizational) issues. And we do soon have to think about high school for fall 2019.

30 years ago it was possible for me in the UK system as a kid somewhat like that (though without the EF issues) to skip a couple of grades and specialize in math for A-levels, dropping the stuff (English, languages) that I found hard (ECs were non-existent also). So I was fairly successful in school and college (I did a math degree and PhD at Cambridge) without ever having to work terribly hard. S23 is potentially as or more talented than me in math (as well as his abilities being quite obvious, the wide ranging tests we did for his ADHD/EF put him at 99.9%+ in that area).

But the US system really doesn’t seem set up to favor that sort of kid. He hasn’t been much interested in sports, mostly plays video games with his friends, and his school hasn’t been a lot of help (especially in addressing his EF challenges) despite being a selective public school for G&T kids. Even his math teacher (he did Algebra 1 this year in 7th grade) doesn’t appreciate him much and has had an unfortunate tendency to mark him down when he doesn’t pay attention and simply writes down the answers without any working because he just knows them (and because he doesn’t like writing). He can be very focused and competitive in the right setting when he’s motivated (he was above all 7th and all but one 8th grader in his school when he did the AMC-8 for fun) but he doesn’t like to stand out or do things on his own and we’ve been reluctant to push him into doing things (e.g. competitive math) that none of his friends are doing.

So my question is whether people who had a very “pointy” 0.1% kid did things differently, particularly in the high school years, from what they did for a regular “all-around” smart kid? Did you have to adjust his/her schooling? Did you find them a group of academic peers elsewhere and if so did that help? Did you allow them to push ahead in their strengths to keep them challenged? Did you feel they needed to tick all the boxes on ECs and across the board good grades or was one area of strength enough to balance out some weaknesses elsewhere? And how did it all work out in the end?

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Personally, I have no direct experience with this issue, but I’m going to throw out some ideas anyway.

Tutorial systems designed to meet these special needs are not very common, but they do exits. In the US, it is easier for a student with these needs to find a suitable graduate school than it is to locate a suitable undergraduate program. Distribution requirements and focus on a “well rounded” education interfere with these special cases.

You might explore a program like Simon’s Rock in Great Barrington, MA. This is a tutorial early college for gifted students which operates on a tailored system. They also have related special programs with two colleges at Oxford University. Oberlin College (remarkable math department) would be a fine schools to consider, but distribution requirements might get in the way. The larger, well known American Universities may not fit this “0.1%” case.

For Simon’s Rock see https://simons-rock.edu/ For Oberlin see https://www.oberlin.edu/

3

If you are i CA, which you may be give your UC successes :slight_smile: , CalState has an early college program; aside from that, I know USC takes early admits, and Simon’s Rock is early college. Additionally, Stanford has an Online HS program that a friend of mine put her two kids in, and they both went Ivy League from there. George Washington and JHU both have online programs for gifted students. US colleges generally focus on “well rounded” rather than targeted HS education

4

I would second Simon’s Rock. Although socially, I don’t think it is going to help improve things. Also, math kids in the US have the ability to be on very high level math teams. Many of these teams work during the school year or Summer. There are also many programs for highly gifted math students. These programs can be considered to be EC’s if they are done within a team setting. There are also related programs in the sciences ( and even history/spelling). Kids who are in the top .1% are often afraid of being even more nerdy than they perceive they are. Once they find other cool kids like themselves they relax a bit. Not all programs will fit (we found many programs were filled with kids who wanted to be in the top 1% forget about top .1% so the parents were pushing hard). These turned my kiddos off. Some others were very long 2-4 hours on a Saturday. So we had to find programs which excited them and made them happy. Sometimes local programs can also suffice. If you live near universities, your son might like attending lectures by visiting professors. Many are open to the public.

5

I have a kid that tested in the .1 % in first grade. He’s been homeschooled since 2nd grade. He’s a junior now, so not sure about college yet. School would have been a hard slog for him. He’s not a hoop jumper and I don’t even think a GT designed for that top percent school would have motivated him before age 12. Executive function has lagged with him as well. He is dual enrolled at a community college right now, and that has been a good baby step to college ready in all ways not just academic level and has run with it. Watching this space with interest.

6

I have a child who was tested well into the top 0.01% very early on, but with skills across the board, the main problem was keeping this kid from being incredibly bored. A co-worker for the last 20 years had a son a few months younger than mine who was very like yours - off the charts in math, EF issues, borderline aspy spectrum. Their solution, which worked out very well for them, was to fully address the issues head on: IEP, 504, extra time, dedicated aide in classroom (early elementary school years only for the aide), coaches/tutors, homework help in areas where help was needed, at the same time high level enrichment in interest areas. Results were a happy kid with ED admittance at an IVY engineering CS program. All the kids EC’s were math/programming/cs related. He wasn’t winning essay contests… Bottom line for what worked was to encourage their son to go full speed ahead with his interests, while putting in a support system to help with his weak areas.

7

Everyone is unique, and there is no formula, but some feedback on our experiences.

First, read “The Man Who Knew Infinity” if you haven’t already. I don’t think it is just a challenge in the US
for kids who are less conventional and/or have a specific strength. This famous mathemetician had to go to the UK with sponsorship of a specific professor who believed in him. He too didn’t like to write down the steps, and was highly unconventional, and narrowly focused. Might get some ideas if you are familiar with the details of his story, not just knowing his name and math as you would likely know given your background.

Also note even the best US public schools seem to only offer meaningful enrichment in high school, rarely in middle school. Be patient and supplement until high school. More below on this.

Personally, had a well rounded kid and one a bit like yours.

2nd was ADHD (medicated), narrowly focused on topics that interested him, less willing/able to make effort in public school for classes of no interest. Loved math, computers, engineering and sports, unwilling to pay attention in Literature, Foreign Language, History etc. His standardized tests confirmed his unbalanced achievement. He is now a very successful student at a school with lots of kids like him, a major tech school in the northeast US. It can work out. In high school he joined FIRST Robotics to stimulate him mentally outside the classroom, and also played sports to help with the hyperactivity.

1st was well rounded, we sent him to a local college with a gifted child program on the weekend during elementary school. He joined academically oriented clubs, joined/won art contests, tried FIRST Robotics too.
He got into a top 20 US university, but having trouble specializing in anything leading to a career.
He was good at everything, loved nothing among his greater strengths.

So which is the success, a kid with ADHC who has career/life focus and doing very well in college,
or the well rounded kid without ADHD, attending an Ivy, not sure what to do with his life ? I think ultimately
anyone can succeed, but the path is somewhat random in terms of exposing them to things and hoping they latch onto something. EC variety is not for padding college apps (though many assume so) but it is helpful to help the less focused kid. I your case, I think outlets to hone what is exciting to him is the better course of action. Math competitions where he’ll meet kids like him and see what he can do is more valuable than being well rounded, IMO.
The world is very specialized, and you should help your child figure out how to apply those skills in a way that interests him.

8

It sounds like the OP’s child is happy being with the main group and doesn’t want to be in a special program. I think it is great that a student with ADHD and EF has a group of friends and enjoys being with them. I know so many top academic performers who have no friends, no social life.

9

My D17 is now a sophomore at a top 10 engineering school - she wasn’t top 1% but usually top 3-4%. Her track was very similar to what your 18’s followed.

My D22 sounds like your S23 - sub 0.1%, SET/DYS, 1560 SAT in 8th grade - it’s a very different set of challenges. Even the top Honors/AP courses at our quality school are for the 95-99.5% kids. We have worked with CTY/DYS to identify areas where she can be challenged. AoPS provides math courses that are outside the standard curriculum and for the top math students (almost all US IMO participants, top AIME/Mathcounts/etc students hang out on the forums to share experiences). We also found a local ARML team - she goes to a weekly class with top students up through HS, including a member of the US IMO team. It’s the first time she hasn’t been smartest/best and she greatly enjoys the challenge and learning.

Davidson’s gifted forums are a good place to discuss with other parents. Check with local colleges on outreach programs. It took us a while to find them, but opportunities are out there.

10

My older son was allowed to skip ahead in math in 6th grade so that he was doing algebra in 7th. He could easily have done algebra in 6th, but the school was so difficult to deal with I didn’t argue. His friends were mostly in band when he started middle school, but he did make a new set of friends from the Math Counts team. Those kids became the core of the Science Olympiad Team and the Academic Team - who were his friends in high school. Except for meltdowns about writing poetry in English classes (we did eventually persuade him that a lousy poem was better than getting a zero on an assignment), school came so easily for him that he had gobs of time to do what he really liked which was computer programming. I often thought he might be borderline Aspie, but except for mild Tourettes and supermild OCD and issues with tags on clothing as a kid which he mostly grew out of neurologically he was fine. We talked about homeschooling at times and he was essentially homeschooled in math as a kid - he did EPGY in addition to school for several years and he read widely about math and computer theory.

I think if he has friends and are on top of any ADHD and EF issues you are in good shape.

11

Why not look at the UK unis?

12

I second @RichinPitt recommendation for AoPS, The top math kids in the US frequent those forums. Also, AMC/AIME contests should be fun for her. Lots of math summer camps are available. My son enjoyed MathPath.

13

Given that your son is a 7th grader, I think you need to focus on raising the whole kid, not on future college admissions. There is a lot of time for growth… including plenty of opportunities for expansion of interests. You may see your son as a 0.1% in math… but your son is a human being.

You have a kid with a singular strength (math) and with clear weaknesses (writing and organizational issues). So as a parent you need to both encourage his strengths but also recognize the importance of addressing weaknesses. Because the writing & organizational issues are things that can be improved.

What are the realistic options you have now for high school?

(Note – I could have described my so the same way when he was a 7th grader – maybe not the 0.1% part in math, but definitely way smarter in math than any of his peers. He never followed up in math in college – but grew up to be a great organizer & workplace manager, and has a writing-intensive job. The kid at age 12 is not the same as the kid at age 22. The reason my son didn’t want to follow up with math is that it came so easily to him that it also bored him - he wanted to challenge himself in other ways.)

14

Look into the Davidson Young Scholars program if he’s not already in - the parents there are a fantastic resource for PG kids.

15

@PurpleTitan We definitely will. The challenge is figuring out a way to get him through high school with enough depth in math to be competitive with UK students and without getting demotivated by other subjects. And figuring out what the US alternative would be for college.

@blevine Yes very familiar with the story (that was my college), but I know my son isn’t remotely that good. Hardy’s “A mathematician’s apology” is an excellent first hand accompaniment. Where did your second son end up attending?

16

I also have no experience with such things, but thinking outside the box here a little - does he need to go to a US university?

17

I’ll 3rd AoPS and 2nd homeschooling. Our ds took his 1st alg course in 6th grade. He is also dyslexic. There is no way a traditional school could have accommodated him. We didn’t want him to graduate early, so he dual enrolled at the local U during high school and graduated with numerous 300 level credits.

Most AoPS students are traditional school students who are supplementing their math.

18

Different kids are talented in different ways by nature. S/he can only excel in things s/he is interested in. There’s no point forcing a child to be something s/he is not. The society needs people with different talents.

19

@calmom Very helpful thank you. Our main focus is that he is happy and productive, not that he’s a math professor. We’re definitely not going to be the grandmother from the movie Genius. Maybe he’ll find motivation, maybe not, but we won’t force it. To your point about math coming too easy, and therefore not wanting to do it, my view has been if you are naturally lazy (like me and perhaps him), why not do the thing that is easiest (I deliberately switched to math because it was less work than chemistry)? We’ll see where he comes out on that question.

We (and he) used to assume he would go to our local high school that his siblings attended. But his middle school has done such a bad job of addressing his EF weaknesses, that we don’t think he would be well equipped to thrive in a big hands-off high school. And local charter schools, which are more hands-on, seem focused on mid range kids without much differentiation (they only have one class per grade level).

So the most likely near term path may be something more one on one which has the potential for dual enrollment at our local CC eventually once he goes beyond what they can cover in math. We’ll see how that goes next year (8th grade) and then reconsider our options. Unfortunately it would be a very expensive solution to pursue all the way through high school. At this point, we don’t have much choice for 8th grade, but we will have to think about what to do beyond that. And so I’m interested in hearing about the paths that others have followed.

20

OP,

I have two sons who tested in the 99.9+%ile. Eldest son was the math kid, so I’ll talk about what we did with him. (Middle son was very 2E with a myriad of mental and physical health issues and was not pointy) I second the idea of applying to the Davidson Young Scholars. They could be very helpful for you.

Eldest was very pointy in math and physics-BUT, he also was an extreme extrovert, loved to learn (most things; there were subjects he disliked very much), loved to read, was highly energetic, and we homeschooled.

Many parents with PG kids do come into homeschooling kicking and screaming as a last resort; we homeschooled/unschooled/self-directed schooled from the get go. I knew from early on that a kid who can’t sit still (ADHD, emphsis on the H when he was young), but who was doing squares, square roots, multiplication and division at age 4, and algebra in 2nd grade would never fit into our local schools. We were able to let him fly in his areas of strength and (in high school) check a few boxes in his areas of disinterest (biology, chemistry, history, foreign language), mostly by either doing easier classes or taking community college classes since one semester equals one year of high school. Easy to get it out of the way quicker.

So, I can’t help in your current school situation other than to say keep advocating for your child, and try to find the right fit in school even if you have to switch and try something new (and I know plenty of gifted kids who have tried many different types of schooling situation).

My son did community college from 7th-12th part time. We used tutors, mentors, online classes, free university audits, homeschool taught classes and more. Local math circle was important because that’s where he was truly challenged in math (he was a straight A student at the community college; wasn’t really challenging). He did AMC, AIME, ARML, local Math Olympiad, Physics Olympiad and Physics Bowl.

He took all the math courses at the community college by sophomore year, and then we sort of unschooled in math for the remaining two years, using an online tutor/mentor to cover dif. eq, dynamical systems and real analysis.

The bigger thing was that he was very active in non-academic activities (violin, teaching, tutoring, church-related activities, baseball, competitive chess, etc). He came of age before the video game era, but he would not have been into them anyways (middle son is another story!). So I can’t comment about that too much other than to say it’s a battle for a lot of kids.

If your kid is not like that and he continues to be pointy, I strongly suggest that when the time comes, you DO consider UK schools. I know a young genius homeschooler who had literally zero interest in anything but math, and was doing graduate level math in middle (?) and high school. He went away to Cambridge to study Maths, and I think is doing well.

My son was fortunate to attend MIT where yeah, he did find “his people”, but he has friends from many different backgrounds and institutions, so there are plenty of places for math pointy kids.

I wish you the best as you try to advocate for your son and find the right education, social and emotional path for your son.