11/22/63 – February CC Book Club Selection

Parent Cafe
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<p>Enjoyed the book…agree the dystopia ending was hurried, and disappointing to some extent. I thought the Oswald family was particularly well done - I knew about Oswald, but now I really feel I understand who he was (at least according to King). Also - kind of unbelievable how Jake is just allowed to “walk away” at the end, without being really questioned by the FBI/police? </p>

<p>Thought King did a better job at the beginning giving us the feeling of a “different time and place” - but then maybe the story just drew me in and I forgot about that part. </p>

<p>regarding other time travel fiction - King, in his afterward, mentions that he was going to dedicate the book to Jack Finney, the author of the wonderful “Time and Again.” King says its his favorite time travel book, and I couldn’t agree more! Highly recommended.</p>

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<p>I agree that the way King portrayed the “different time and place” feeling at the beginning was just great. Very lyrical and enchanting, I thought.</p>

<p>By having the action occur in the not-too-distant past, he eliminated the angst some fictional time travelers feel when they worry about passing as a person of the time.</p>

<p>Jake, as a time traveler, could enjoy the things that were delicious about the past in a relaxed way and at the same time could feel a satisfying sense of omniscience about the changes that were coming.</p>

<p>To me, that was by far the most appealing thing about the book.</p>

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Oops! I guess I read your post too fast, ignatius. I do agree with the feeling of Jake’s travels being preordained.</p>

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<p>NJTM- wrote ** Jake, as a time traveler, could enjoy the things that were delicious about the past in a relaxed way and at the same time could feel a satisfying sense of omniscience about the changes that were coming.</p>

<p>To me, that was by far the most appealing thing about the book. **</p>

<p>Yes, I agree! Thoroughly enjoyed the romp through the 60’s, the small and large differences, even though some of them may have been incorrect.</p>

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<p>san-dee’s and SlithyTove’s comments have just sent me to Amazon.com for Time and Again by Jack Finney. Thanks for the recommendation! (I only wish it was available for the Kindle. :()</p>

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<p>Here is the conundrum I’ve been struggling with:</p>

<p>I think Stephen King is a better writer than what is given to us in 11/22/63. But who is actually the writer here? The Stephen King books that have more complex characters and more evocative writing are mostly third person omniscient narratives, whereas 11/22/63 is a first person memoir. </p>

<p>So I guess what I’m saying is that Jake Epping wrote 11/22/63, not Stephen King. And as Jake, sometimes that writing is pedantic. For example, there did reach a point where I thought I was going to scream if I read the words, “the past is obdurate” one more time. And he was overly fond of using elaborate metaphors. (“It sounded as if half his works had come loose and were slamming around in there like bumper cars at an amusement park” …”his hair stood out around his head like that of a cartoon nebbish who has just inserted Finger A in Electric Socket B”… ”It felt like there was a tornado funnel behind my forehead. Instead of cows and fenceposts and scraps of paper, what it was sucking up and spinning around were names.”) But I chalked that up to the style of a mediocre wannabe novelist (Jake) rather than a seasoned author (King) who got lazy.</p>

<p>If you give Stephen King the benefit of the doubt, it could be that he was taking a creative risk by letting his character really take over and write the book, for better or for worse.</p>

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<p>When I was reading the book, I wrote a few things down so I’d remember them but am travelling at the moment and have neither my notes or my book with me. However, one of the small things I enjoyed about the romp through the 60s was when Jake would use words/phrases or mention songs that clearly had not entered common usage yet. I wish I could remember examples, darn for not having them with me! But I did enjoy that small part of the story and it made me think about how difficult it would likely be to travel from 2011 back to the 60s and be able to converse on a daily basis without allowing anything post-1960 from entering the picture.</p>

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<p>^^^</p>

<p>Sadie gets so upset over words Jake uses that she’s unused to. Really? I had to laugh: long ago, my husband from the midwest used words not common to my born-and-bred TX vocabulary. We used to joke when he’d tell me to put something on the davenport (Do we have one?) or adjust the furnace (Furnace? You mean fiddle withe the heat?) or he wanted a pop (Tempting. LOL). Never did it occur to me that he might be from another time or place (as in alien). Should have known. ;)</p>

<p>Since we’re discussing time travel books, I liked *The Time Traveler’s Wife<a href=“nothing%20historical%20though”>/i</a> and I want to read *The Map of Time<a href=“time%20travel%20plus%20historical%20fiction”>/i</a> - Felix J. Palma.</p>

<p>Forget Jimla* for a just a second: How about the Richie from the ditchie and Bevvie from the levee interlude? What was that about?</p>

<p><em>Note to self: Jimla - not meant to closely analyzed but rather included and intended (by author) to create a sense of impending doom. Accept for what it is and move on.</em></p>

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<p>They (Bevvie and Richie) were characters from IT. I’ve never read IT and have only seen parts of it on TV, but that was enough to scare me silly. After reading the section in 11/22/63 that referred to IT, I even had a nightmare.</p>

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<p>^ Wow! Thanks for the info. I had no idea. From what I just read online about IT, Bevvie and Richie will be facing a monstrous battle of their own. Readers who recognize the characters can more fully appreciate the sense of impending doom in 11/22/63. It seems that’s not the only “weaving” that Stephen King has done–- the ominous references to murdered children in Derry also come from IT, and apparently there are some Dark Tower allusions as well. I guess it provides an extra layer of fun/terror for the hardcore Stephen King fans out there.</p>

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<p>Mary! What you said about “Jake writing the book” is a great observation! I really think you nailed it…brava!</p>

<p>If that’s what King was doing, the risk he took seems to have been worth it, for the book is wildly popular, as I understand it.</p>

<p>I must admit that Jake and/or the writing were annoying enough to me that I might almost have given up on reading the book if I had not made the commitment to finish it for this discussion.</p>

<p>I will say I’m glad I read it, but I do think it is a pretty strange piece of work.</p>

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<p>Eke, Mary, I feel another nightmare coming on. :o</p>

<p>I really enjoyed 11/22/63, and after 20+ years of not reading King, I’m currently reading Under the Dome. I’m still going to stay away from his horror novels though.</p>

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<p>Let us know how you like “Under the Dome,” coronax2.</p>

<p>Many years ago, I read several early King books along the lines of “The Shining” and “Christine” and “Cujo,” and I liked them.</p>

<p>Then I tried “Pet Sematary” and was appalled by its over-the-top bloody violence. That made me cautious about King, and the only other book of his that I read for quite a while was “The Talisman” (1984), which I recall as okay, although I really don’t even remember anything about it any more.</p>

<p>I think that at his best King can be rather brilliant, but you really have to pick and choose.</p>

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This is what I love about this book club. You guys make me consider angles I wouldn’t come up with on my own. I’ll give King the benefit of the doubt, but that means Jake shouldn’t try to publish the book he was writing.</p>

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This works for me!</p>

<p>coronax2 & Mary - Thanks for the information on Bevvie and Richie, the murdered Derry Children, and the Dark Tower connections to King’s other books. I assume the Dark Tower in 11/22/62 was the broken down stack from the old factory that called Jake to enter. I like that King was having fun adding things from his other books and giving his long time fans something a little extra just for them.</p>

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<p>Yes, I agree you really have to pick and choose with King. I loved his earlier works, “Salem’s Lot” (great - and I don’t like vampire stories particularly); “The Shining,” “The Stand.” I tried others, but they were just too…long. And too bloody. 9/22/63 was long, but not bloody and had the added element of time travel, so I liked it.</p>

<p>Re; Ritchie and Bevee. Yes, I suppose they will reappear in another King opus; but they also were used effectively to introduce the whole sidebar of “In the Mood.” I enjoyed that dancing motif, and I liked the way King ended the novel with it.</p>

<p>I never considered that King would become the Yellow Card Man;- I thought the question was more what would happen with Jake and Sadie. I considered the Yellow Card guy a tortured guardian of the gate. But…when Jake is pushed by Al on his quest, the yellow card guy was dead with a black card in hand; when he is going to return, he is ok with a green card; I suppose that indicated the guardian thought Jake was going to do the right thing? But when he (Jake) returns to do the right thing, the card is ocher, and the guy is half-dead. I suppose because it took Jake a full hour to see what havoc he caused?</p>

<p>I liked also the mini-anaysis of Lyndon Johnson’s importance to civil rights. This is often overlooked. Again, King could have given us a more subtle dystopia. But, he wanted to make his point, so no question about what he had to do…but earthquakes?</p>

<p>Oh, the Ray Bradbury story about the butterfly effect that Sadie mentions she has read “A Sound of Thunder” is a great short story that obviously effected King, and me too, cause I never forgot it. Reading that will add to the enjoyment of 9/22/63. </p>

<p>I liked the Time Traveler’s Wife as well. Will be curious to hear anyone’s reactions to the Bradbury story or the Finney book. (For “Time and Again” - the beginning is a bit mixed up; but keep going. The evocative description of the time the protagonist enters is simply amazing.</p>

<p>Any suggestions for other, later King books? I tried “It” but didn’t like it.</p>

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<p>First, I want to say I liked this book, and am recommending to others. </p>

<p>But, I share NJTheaterMom view:I must admit that Jake and/or the writing were annoying enough to me that I might almost have given up on reading the book if I had not made the commitment to finish it for this discussion.</p>

<p>I remember around page 500 getting so frustrated with lapse of writing abilities, sometimes it was clear, concise, clever, but often it seemed sloppy and goofy. I wasn’t sure about continuing.</p>

<p>And, THEN there is the theme of ** “violence against women”**, a big turn off to me.
While the recurring “domestic abuse theme” was needed as a thread in the book,after Marina’s umpteenth wife beating, around page 500 +, I had to confirm whether Oswald was a known “Wife beater”.
He was, but King’s repetitive theme of “women being abused” disturbed me, seemed excessive.
Does this occur in his other books? </p>

<p>I’m reading King’s semi autobiographical book entitled ** “On Writing”**, hoping to shed some light on King’s relationship with women.
He had some painful childhood memories, and the bond with his own mother was not that strong. To his credit or Tabitha’s (his wife) he’s been married for a lvery long time.</p>

<p>Did it bother anyone else, that King blamed Oswald’s mother for all of Oswald’s problems?
So, I’ll leave King’s misogyny alone for now, but I won’t be grabbing many more King books. </p>

<p>re: “Jimla”
The use of “Jimla” was interesting as a writing technique. It’s a nonsense word, used to create mystery and "fear’ in the reader.
It was just such a disappointment when it was revealed what it was. Big build up- big let down.</p>

<p>In his book, On Writing, King suggests that writers should have a “toolbox” box of skills when they write.
Vocabulary being the first, and most important, but then he discusses how some writers, “make” up words successfully.
I think this may be in King’s bag of “tricks”- perhaps he has done this in other books ?
from page 117 On Writing
"There’s also stuff you’ll never find in the dictionary, but it’s still vocabulary "
Then he quotes a Tom Wolfe, Bonfire of the Vanities passage.</p>

<p>RE: Apocalyptic future
It’s amusing how many of us,me included, felt the apocalyptic future so incredible, in a book about “time travel”! So, a dismal future, with fear in the city streets, nuclear fall out not believable, but time travel is? </p>

<p>Remember the movie “13 Days”, the Cuban Missile Crisis ? Without the Kennedy’s influence the military might have pushed us into nuclear war. Nuclear war a real possibility.
Aren’t we experiencing “earthquakes” possibly perhaps related to “fracking”?</p>

<p>Finally, as I watched the first 10 minutes of the Philly nightly news last night , the urban horror show, I wondered how the world would look to a time traveler. Horrific.</p>

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<p>san-dee, have you read The Dead Zone? I read it after I saw the movie (with Christopher Walken—he is amazing in that role). I think the gift/curse that King gives his main character (Johnny Smith) is fascinating. </p>

<p>SouthJerseyChessMom, The Stand is full of strong women who hold their own with the men. It’s been a long time since I read it, but I remember liking all the female characters (even the “baddies”) and I didn’t ever see them as victims. I’ve never thought of King as having a misogynist bent. I think horror books have a certain level of violence, and the greatest horror we feel is when there is violence against women and children, so he takes advantage of that. If you ask me, any misogyny in King’s books doesn’t hold a candle to what’s in The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo. </p>

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<p>LOL. You mean time travel isn’t real? By the way, if you’re looking to be swept up in a book about a terrifying apocalyptic future, read The Road by Cormac McCarthy (or alternatively, just keep watching the Philly nightly news. :))</p>

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<p>The apocalyptic future in the book didn’t seem all that far-fetched to me. For one thing, there are lots of books and films around these days that depict an apocalyptic future just as dire as King’s</p>

<p>For another thing, King would have been (as I was) influenced by growing up in an era of great anxiety over nuclear war, as you mentioned, SJCM. In addition, for a while in the 1970’s there were lots of books about possible coming catastrophic scenarios…for instance, “The Population Bomb,” which predicted something like the end of the world from overpopulation long before 2012!</p>

<p>SJCM, the very ugly depiction of Oswald’s mom bothered me too. I wonder if there is any strong evidence of her being entirely that bad?</p>

<p>I can’t think of a marked trend of violence against woman in King novels. But there tends to be plenty of violence against EVERYBODY. The novel “Cell,” which I rather liked, and which was mostly a psychological thriller as it went along, started off with a horribly graphic scene where someone answered a cellphone call from an unknown number, and their head blew up!</p>

<p>The cell phone user in that opening scene just happened to be a teenage girl.</p>

<p>The novel “Cujo” shook me because King killed off a type of character (not female but…well, no spoilers) who usually survives in fantasy stories. They changed that for the film!!</p>

<p>Re scary made-up words…JIMLA reminds me of REDRUM in “The Shining”…a nonsense word until you (eek!) look at it in the mirror.</p>

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<p>Let us know how you like “Under the Dome,” coronax2.</p>

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<p>I’m only about 10% into Under the Dome, and so far, I’m a fan. I’m loving the way that King is developing the story. For me, it’s not the page turner that 11/22/63 was, but that’s good. I couldn’t put 11 down.</p>

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<p>coronax2: Another thanks for clearing up the Ritchie and Bevvie conundrum. I would have had no idea. (I love this book club!)</p>

<p>Regardless, in my opinion, that particular scene contains ominous undertones … and then … nothing. For the non-King-reader, it remains a “what the heck” moment? On one hand, I appreciate his nod to long time fans, and, on the other, I feel like reminding him that non-King-fans view it as a just another loose end. Search JIMLA on the internet and you’ll find reader after reader thinking they missed its meaning and asking for an explanation. I would have to say, “Not well done, Mr. King.” (Perhaps his triple-jointed credulity came into play here.)</p>

<p>SJCM: I don’t think King blames Oswald’s mother for his problems. He definitely points out the unhealthy and stressful relationship between the two. Truthfully that can’t have helped. Still, weird mom hectors his brother Robert equally (remember that scene on the sidewalk) and Robert manages to hold together. Also, Oswald seems almost as belligerent toward the well-meaning ex-pat community. King points out that Oswald has no friends and an inability to last in his various jobs. I think King pretty clearly lays the blame directly on Oswald’s doorstep. </p>

<p>Interview with Marguerite Oswald (1964)</p>

<p>[1964</a> INTERVIEW WITH MARGUERITE OSWALD (LEE HARVEY OSWALD’S MOTHER) - YouTube](<a href=“- YouTube”>- YouTube)</p>