12-Year-Old Headed to Cornell University as a Student

Parents Forum
181

@wis75,

I am quite sure I “get” giftedness. The question is why don’t you understand that we live in a society? Words can inspire and give comfort, or they can cause pain.

You have the intelligence to realize that you did nothing to “earn” your intelligence. It was literally a “gift” that was a result of how your parents’ DNA combined. You and your parents may well have nurtured it, but others without this gift can work incredibly hard and not be able to achieve what you do.

Why in the world do you need to belittle others?

182

“Medically speaking” “terms used professionally” Even the DSM -5 from 2013 no longer uses the term “mental retardation.” Did you not get the memo? Should we go back to using imbecile or cretin while we’re at it? I know you’re an intelligent person and you obviously pride yourself on that, but I just don’t get your position on this at all.

183

Tying the OP to this tangent, I think that what may be a large factor in whether the 12 yo succeeds socially or not is whether he has been taught empathy and how to work with/live with others above and beyond his classes, test scores and grades. That it’s not all about academics and intelligence ANYWHERE for ANYONE.

My D took dance lessons from the same guy for 10 years at the local community center. at the elementary school level, the classes were open to anyone, so there was a great range of abilities in each session. The instructor made it work, because he is very good at what he does. But one incident has always stayed with me:

In one session, a new student, about 10 years old like the rest of the kids, came in. She was obviously developmentally delayed. Each week she’d do her best to keep up with the other kids, never quite on beat, but she was having such fun! The advanced kids kept up their own pace with more complex steps. One day the new girl just stopped dead in the middle of a routine. Her shoe had come undone and she didn’t know how to tie it. Some of the girls snickered. The instructor stopped the class, went over and tied her shoe, then looked at the rest of the kids.

“We ALWAYS stop and help those who need our help. We don’t laugh at them, we respect them. This girl might know how to do something YOU can’t do. Do not laugh at her. Ever.”

Sure, there were kids who could dance circles around the new girl. But they never once laughed at her again. That essay about “All I Need to Know I learned in Kindergarten?” Very true. You don’t have to be gifted to be kind to others. Even 10 year olds can figure it out.

184

I said that I would let the severe giftedness discussion drop, so I will not comment on that component of the discussion. Hey, give me credit, at least I waited a day before returning. :slight_smile:

The topic that I would like to address in this post is empathy. I wonder if there might be some displays of empathy on this thread, in cases where it is hard or at least hard-ish.

For example, what about empathy for the young man mentioned in the first post? Pizzagirl, very creditably, has already shown that, but most of the anti-acceleration posters have been prescriptive, as far as I can tell, rather than starting from the standpoint of trying to understand the actual difficulties this young man faces. What about empathy for his parents, who have taken the difficult step of moving long-distance? I presume they moved in order to support educational opportunities for the student, and to make it possible for him to have typical childhood experiences outside of academics, as well.

In a more difficult case, what about empathy for the bullies? I mentioned the young man who hit my daughter because she would not tell him her 7th grade SAT scores (he had some from the Talent Search, too). Do you think a 12-year-old does not know that hitting people is wrong? Even if he did it twice? Do you not think that he might mature later on, and get over this without needing to have whatever consequences the school might have dumped on him? That is why I did nothing about this, other than to comfort my daughter, and tell her that she was within her rights to say nothing. (As mentioned, I do still wonder whether this was the right thing to do, but it seems to have turned out okay.)

No one has reacted to the fact that the young man’s mother knew the SAT scores of most of the Talent Search participants in the school, because she had access to district-wide data. Even PG, who is normally quite vigilant about suggesting that people should not be nosy about other people’s children, did not comment on this. If you put it in context, you can imagine the pressures on the boy. Throw in the fact that I was told that my daughter’s still unknown SAT scores were under discussion by other mothers at the local hair salon.

In an extreme case, what about empathy for the young man’s mother? She too was facing pressures, even if self-imposed.

I want to add that my daughter was firm in standing up against students who were bullying other students, and did exactly the right thing without input from me.

185

“All I Need to Know I learned in Kindergarten?”

Daughter learned that young kids are not always nice in her Kindergarten. Not just swearing in foul language, which some of them certainly can. There were two girls, A and B. A was trying to exclude B. Daughter refused A’s request in this and included B in the small groups. One day they were supposed to make pairs. There were odd number of kids. A held daughter’s hand until the last moment, and then moved to B, leaving daughter unpaired.

This childish low level social skill might be necessary to survive an elementary school, but wouldn’t do good in the long term development, and won’t be necessary for those who will skip elementary school altogether. I figured that daughter has learned enough about socials and it helped me to decide homeschooling.

186

Well, I am certainly no expert on profoundly gifted children, but I have met a few young people like this - including one person whose name many people on this thread would know.

Here’s my two cents:

I tend to think that when it comes to academically intensive pursuits, “water eventually finds its own level”. As long as a child has access to a good quality education, whether or not they start taking college classes a few years earlier won’t really make very much difference in where they end up as adults. For athletic pursuits like (say) Olympic gymnastics, it seems like people peak at a very young age, so you have to give a child special training very early on if you want them to achieve their full potential before their bodies pass their peak. But I think scholastic pursuits are different.

I would say that there are two kinds of childhood “prodigies”:

  1. The “Doogie Howsers” - at the age of 12, they’re starting to do things that very bright 20 year olds can do.
  2. The “Mozarts” - at the age of 12, they’re starting to do things that nobody can do.

Honestly, I think a lot of prodigies fall into the “Doogie” camp. Yes, they are far ahead of everyone else when they are young, but by age 20 or so there are thousands and thousands of people who have caught up. A 10 year old who can do advanced calculus is exceptional, but an 18 year old who can is simply just another bright kid. Usually sometime in graduate school a seriously academically inclined person has to start making the transition from being a really, really good student to being an independent, creative researcher. They are really very different skills, and even a lot of former star prodigies do not make this transition any better than their peers do.

Personally, I am not sure if it is worth completely disrupting people’s childhoods if the outcome is eventually about the same. There are lots of other ways to balance serious academic enrichment with a semi-normal childhood. I think the parents of these students have to do a lot of research and talk to some of the few people who have direct experience with these issues in order to make the right decision for their child.

Of course, in every generation their are a handful of “Mozarts”. In these cases it definitely may make sense to do some radical things in order to give these kids the nurturing they need. But I do not think there are as many of these kids around as some might want to think.

The good news (in my opinion) is that even if a kid is sent too college too early and isn’t able to develop their social skills when they are young, most eventually figure it out later in life. Girls seem to do better than boys in this regard too.

In this case, nothing would be lost and much would be gained by using a less hurtful term. Be kind.

The use of the term “giftedness” itself acknowledges that someone has been given a gift. Remember,

187

Your distinction between Doogie and Mozart is a terrific one. My suspicion is that a few too many Doogie parents mistake their child for Mozart.

188

QM - I have far more empathy for your D, who was hit, than the bully who hit her (and apparently was a repeat offender).

And I think everyone on here has empathy for the parents of the young man described in the OP. Many of us are thankful we don’t have to be in their shoes. It’s a hard row to plow (is that the expression?).

189

Maybe they’re just keeping their fingers crossed that their Doogie doesn’t turn into Barney Stinson :wink:

Actually, the expression is “It’s a tough row to hoe” … farming related, I think.

190

"I’ll bet most of you are mainstream and rejected kids when you were in HS, hurting many of them without realizing it. "

Uh, no, I don’t think so. I think that’s quite offensive to suggest that we on here were the bullies making fun of the smart kids. As much as you may not want to believe, most of US were the smart kids. Honest.

191

Thanks! I knew I didn’t have it right! Clearly they made a mistake when they identified me as gifted way back when :slight_smile:

192

PG, thanks for post #188. I appreciate your sentiments. At the same time, I think that one really ought to have empathy for people who need it, but may not particularly appear to deserve it.

You are one of the few posters who has made your empathy explicit for the young man mentioned in the first post, and for his parents, especially among the anti-acceleration group.

Also, I really want to re-emphasize that this was bullying in the smart-on-smart category, as was most of what I heard about from the middle-school and high-school years, mostly not directed at my daughter, though a bit was.

193

I have sympathy for the bully who punched my daughter, because we chose not to press charges and have a permanent mark on his school record (and beyond). I extended that grace to him in recognition that kids do really stupid things, and I was satisfied with the corrective steps taken to ensure that his behavior would change.

Empathy, however-I have none, because I have never hit someone, and I have no idea (nor do I care to) how it feels like to be abusive like that.

194

An example in line with @al2simon #186.

http://www.gradschoolhub.com/10-youngest-people-ever-to-achieve-a-doctorate-degree/:

Kim Ung-Yong, a Korean boy with an IQ of 210 worked for NASA at age 8. He is now an old professor at a small university in Korea. Was it necessary for him to do math that early (question for his parents and the society)?

195

@al2simon said:

There is something important that you are missing. Parenting a profoundly gifted (PG) child is very taxing.

For every tiger parent with a PG child that is pushing them to achieve a Nobel prize by age 35, there are probably 20 other parents just wondering how in the world do we keep this PG child mentally satisfied. Ours needs at least 1-2 hours of intense mental stimulation each day in the same way that others need oxygen. This is true even on vacation.

PG children in low-performing school districts often severely under-perform due to this lack of mental stimulation. One way to try and promote this stimulation is to grade skip to the point where the work actually become challenging. This can cause social issues, but in low-performing schools the social issues were probably present in the age-appropriate class anyway. As I said earlier, we were able to solve this problem by living in a town with a very high performing public school system, but for various reasons that option is not available for everyone.

196

I have been thinking about QM’s hitting story. In general - I understand turning the other cheek and certainly respect that approach. However, I’m really concerned about bullying and responses to bullying. So it seems to me the correct response should be reporting the young man, either to parents who would take action or to the school administration. This protects other children. If my child were the one hitting, I would want the opportunity to do my best to correct that behavior. (One of my kids was a biter when very young, so I do get this part. If no one tells you, it’s really not a favor) If I was the parent of the child who had been hit, and that child doesn’t want to report, that is more difficult because I believe in letting children make as many decisions as possible for themselves. But I would have tried to make reporting both about protecting others and about protecting the hitter by not allowing him to believe this behavior was okay.

QM: I am not criticizing your response, just treating it like an Ethicist problem. I am sure your response was the best for your particular situation.

Sharing the scores: A substitute teacher ended up in a class with a print out of all the PSAT scores and freely shared that print out with the students in the class. This was before any of the scores had been released to students or families. I heard about it Friday afternoon after the office was closed. I was at school Monday morning when they opened and nothing like that ever happened again while my kids were in school there. I told them it was an invasion of every child’s privacy. I was angry for years afterward, though I’m over it now.

eta: crossposted with a bunch of others - may have to edit the above after reading all the posts

I don’t know if they were discussing scores at the hair salon, but the (childless!) hygienist waited till I was out of the room to ask about SAT scores and my kid told me he told her his mom wouldn’t allow him to share them. I was always happy to be the bad guy.

eta 2:

I was definitely mainstream in HS and while I hope I never deliberately hurt anyone, I’m sure there were many occasions where thoughtless behavior on my part was hurtful to others. I just wasn’t smart enough or mature enough to see it at the time. I think I hurt some very badly. It happened in college as well. I just couldn’t see outside my own self interests and was often a really lousy friend.

197

Some parents seem to push their kids unnecessarily because they think they have the next Einstein on their hands, rather than let things unfold naturally. I don’t think that seems to have happened here with the instance being discussed with this 12 year old , but I do think it happens. The parents sound reasonable and supportive and have a VERY gifted child that they are trying to do the best for. Anecdotal- My younger kid had a kid in his kindergarten class whose dad was a math professor and whose mom was an adjunct math professor at the local college. The parents badgered the teacher to get him tested, insisted he was so advanced that he needed special tutoring in his public school. This school was very diverse, with 50 or 60 % of kids getting free lunches. Yet , the school found a Naval officer volunteer to come in once a week to tutor this kid! Made no sense then, and years later, still makes no sense. This was KINDERGARTEN , in a public school with limited resources. Volunteer hours would have been much better spent , IMHO.

I volunteered in the class. The teacher told me she thought my kid was just as bright as this kid. She is the one that recommended he be tested for giftedness . My older kid was already in the gifted program. We knew he was very bright but just let things unfold. But, my kids are probably more the garden variety gifted types, not “severely gifted.” And that’s okay.

I do have empathy for those who have kids that are “severely gifted.” I do think those kids are more rare. And, as @Pizzagirl says, the Mozart’s of the world are VERY rare.

198

In post 30, sbjdorlo wrote: "Viva la difference "

If we could really and truly do this, I think the world becomes much better place for all of us. However, it is really difficult to put into practice in a meaningful, day to day, sort of way.

199

I have enjoyed reading this thread with many mixed emotions. I have a son who is in a group home because he is intellectually challenged. I remember going to countless special ed meetings while he was in public school. I find the lack of empathy on some parents parts in regards to this issue to be very distressing.

I have another kid who is extremely gifted. They started multivariable calculus while they were 12. They finished both Physic Cs while in eighth grade. They did not graduate HS early. That does not make us anti- acceleration. As a family we figured out a strategy with the childs best interest at heart. They took 8 total years of different foreign languages among other things My kid and us believes the absolute right decisions were made. My kid just hopes that they have a brain like Doogie Howser.

I have lots of empathy for the child in the article. I personally think the parents are pushing the child way too much and it will end badly. I certainly hope not

I also do think that PGs posts in this thread are great

200

@collegedad13, “They did not graduate HS early. That does not make us anti- acceleration.”

I absolutely agree with this. On the other hand, if they did, that would not make you a tiger dad either.

Most of parents figure “out a strategy with the childs best interest at heart,” whether it is early college or not.

“I personally think the parents are pushing the child way too much and it will end badly. I certainly hope not”

And I worry that some parents, not you, maybe holding back their child way too much and it will end badly. And I hope not as well.