3rd grade math - am I crazy or are they?

Parent Cafe
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<p>reflectivemom:</p>

<p>When my S took college physics, his first problem set came back with the following comment: Even in science, we use English, you know!</p>

<p>Granted, the type of explanation required by the teacher is not a good illustration of an elegant proof. The point is that students should get into the habit of explaining how they got their solutions. As my S says of his college math, getting the solution is not the issue. It’s explaining why it works that’s the point.</p>

<p>My college roommate ( a chem major) and I took an art history course together. She was absolutely crushed to see how poorly she’d done on a midterm and showed me her bluebook. We’d been asked to identify the style and approximate dates of an art object. Her explanation for her dating consisted of: “See the decorations…” when what was needed to be said was: “the decorative motif of… is typical of xyz period.” I was reminded of this when I read about the 3rd grader’s explanation that he’d looked at the hundreds and thousands.</p>

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<p>Absolutely have those issues evalutated. If the teacher’s voice upsets you, can you imagine how your child feels with this woman! Perhaps you might want to think about having his class changed for the next few months (I know that this is a tall order in many schools). I would be more concerned about your little guy’s happiness, and confidence. Perhaps there is a learning disability that this teacher has picked up on, and she did the right thing by calling in the psychologist. It seems that her rigidity is a bit problematic for your son.</p>

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<p>Erica is right:

So even though calmom & reflective gave excellent reasons why this open-ended/explanation heavy math assessment is not likely to encourage & nurture true math mastery, it is what is required. </p>

<p>NYmom, I don’t know why, but I do vaguely remember from a child development course that wearing clothes backwards past a certain age is believed to be an indicator of some problem or developmental lag. Sorry to be so vague! I would ask the teacher why that issue is so darn important. Has anyone ever suggested ADD should be explored? Just the way your son finds this math explanation task to be a huge chore, even though writing a second sentence would take him about 30 seconds & give the teacher what she wants, is typical of ADD kids. As is the problem with oral directions. Hopping (which as another poster pointed out, could be appropriate in some situations, but disruptive in others) as well.</p>

<p>Our teachers spend a great deal of time stressing that open-ended questions are the way kids are being assessed in math. Regardless of how they or we parents feel about its value. My son is a 5th grader with ADD & groans loudly about this requirement. He will spend about 10 X more time & energy complaining about it than it would take to just answer the question in the format requested. I honestly don’t know enough about child development or brain physiology to guess if this open-ended approach will help in the future & develop a kid’s foundation for higher level math. Unless you feel that this approach is completely extinguishing his love of math, you might present it as just one of those tasks we have to do in life, like picking up toys, putting dishes in the sink, or (insert least favorite chore here.)</p>

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<p>LOL, now we’re really going to be on the same page re: your son, NYMom!</p>

<p>I too hold out hope that the more experienced psychologist will observe your son in class, and identify some of the issues that run in patterns within schools.</p>

<p>My “red flag” of alert went up when you said this teacher thinks he doesn’t follow oral directions well. Mention this to the psychologist in advance to look out for whether she GIVES oral directions well. That’s a real learning curve for many first-year teachers to master. Clear, direct language of instruction, not a wall of words…</p>

<p>Do YOU find he doesn’t listen well to instructions around your house? That’s feedback for the psychologist if you do (or don’t!) find a problem in that regards. Young children are always more tuned in to the way their Mom talks, and your style of “giving instructions” differs markedly from how the teacher talks. Here’s one big difference that my mom-in-law, who had 5 boys, had to teach me this. In my speech patterns, I used to explain why I was telling my kids to do something and finish with the direction. She carped at me that I told them too much; “just tell them what to do, and enough!” I said that I wanted them to know the why’s and wherefore’s of life. BUt I found I got better cooperation from my headstrong firstborn when I reversed the order, and said, “Please take your dish to the dishwasher, because we all help together with dinner.” Before my mom-in-law intervened I’d say, “Around here we all help with dinner, so please take your dish to the dishwasher.”
What I would NOT agree to do was just bark, “Please take your dish to the dishwasher.” So I compromised with my mom-in-law.</p>

<p>Long story short: have the psychologist watch for the speech patterns when the teacher gives the whole class directions. Also, see if she restates the directions if she sees that several individuals are not (yet) complying, using a different phrasing (not just repeating her exact words). See if there’s good order in the classroom; does she quiet everyone BEFORE issuing the directions?! Good teachers are trained to do all of this in teacher’s college and practice teaching.</p>

<p>On reading: if the decoding isn’t as good as the reading comprehension, see what happens if he reads an easier book. As you know, it’s a multi-task mental process to read. If he can read to the satisfaction of others, who may be impressed that he’s reading a “hard” book aloud, that doesn’t mean he’s simultaneously processing the ideas of the story inside his head. Reading should always be a pleasant experience, and should always make sense to the child. When we saw this stuff happening with kids, we’d let them read easier books FOR A WHILE, just so they’d re-engage with the important feeling of making meaning whenever they read. Learning to read is not a well-oiled machine in most young children, however, so if one skill seems to outpace another for a time, that’s not too unusual. But you’re astute to notice this, because the most important thing IS to comprehend. Also check for the fluency. He may be “decoding” or reading very accurately, but if it sounds choppy or not well-phrased, then it’s also time to take it back a step and pick up some slightly easier books. Urge him to read “so it sounds like talking.” Re-reading aloud is also fine. Sometmes, being DISFLUENT interferes with comprehension, even though the “decoding” is l00 percent accurate. </p>

<p>Perhaps the psychologist can explaint the school’s assessment techniques for reading better than the teacher can. You said you had asked, but been rebuffed, for proper explanation. </p>

<p>Now you’ll love this true story. My S in First Grade was inattentive to his K teacher because he didn’t find her very interesting. By the end of K, he was starting, at home, to look away from us and then suddenly tune back in, saying “What?” like he’d been out-of-town for a few minutes. I thought he had a hearing problem! All summer we had his hearing checked, etc…but in First Grade he started in that Congregated Gifted classroom, where the teacher and room setup were fascinating. Guess what? By the third week of Sept., he stopped doing that “What?” thing at home. He didn’t have any hearing problem, but he DID have a listening problem to dullness. He still doesn’t suffer fools gladly.</p>

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<p>Berurah, that is too funny! My older son (in an accelerated HS math course) is periodically required to write about his feelings about math, write biographies of mathematicians, write advertisements about math. I hate this whole trend.</p>

<p>“Decorate your work,” indeed! Fortunately, since use of color is not tested by the state, this is unlikely to become a trend.</p>

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<p>paying, I did tell my son that his teacher had told me that he didn’t listen to her. He replied, in all innocence, “Mom, I just don’t see any point in listening to her.”</p>

<p>Another piece of evidence of my son’s dysfunction that she presented: She told him to get a piece of paper, and he just looked blankly around the room as if he’d never gotten the paper before. She demonstrated to me; her direction, “Go get a sheet of looseleaf.” (She speaks very fast.) I asked her whether he was familiar with the word, “looseleaf.” She said, in her rapid-fire way, “Oh, yes, we use this word all the time.” When I got home and asked my son if he knew where the looseleaf was in the classroom, he said, “Lo-o-ozleav, what’s that?”</p>

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<p>StickerShock, I’d be very surprised if my son had ADD. He is very engaged and on top of things (except in this classroom). When I read the teacher’s descriptions of his behavior, I don’t recognize the child she is describing. When I showed them to my husband, he asked whether she might have gotten mixed up and given us a description of another child!</p>

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<p>I really doubt the original poster’s child has any LDs. He sounds exactly like Mathson at that age. He’s a senior in high school and writing still isn’t his favorite activity. His 6 to 10 page paper will be 5 1/2 pages. But he’s cogent and concise and does very well despite a continued aversion to writing at any length. I think you are much more likely to have a teacher problem here. The good news is that it’s just elementary school.</p>

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<p>NYmom, Well, that’s key. If a kid is suspected of having ADD, those telltale behaviors will be noticed by more than one adult who spends considerable time with him. And the degree to which those behaviors are noticed would have to be fairly often and consistent in various settings to be highly suggestive of that diagnosis. Most ADD kids are very engaged, though. Too engaged, in fact. Their minds are racing in several different directions & they often bring very insightful approaches to classroom discussion. But when the bell rings & they head home, they leave their homework assignments in their desks!</p>

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<p>NYMom–I have a 3rd grader and 5th grader in school and they have to do the same thing to practice for standardized testing–annoying, but not the teacher’s fault. “Johnny had two books. Susie gave him two more. How many books did he have altogether?” EXPLAIN your answer. My D has come crying to me for help with this kind of homework, and I am at a loss to give a better explanation than “I added 2 and 2.” Duh. (Flame me, but I think of this as “girlie math.”) Nothing wrong with your kid. Of course I’ve been known to wear my clothes backwards, too. </p>

<p>Now I have a homeschooled 7th grader in mathcounts competition–it helps to do as much as you can as fast as you can however you want–in your head or on paper. No explaining anything. Only the right answer gets points–which suits that kid perfectly.</p>

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<p>Atomom, that’s why some call “No Child Left Behind”…“No Behind Left.” :)</p>

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<p>Mathmom,
Where did your son find that t-shirt!!! Gotta find one for DS1 – his “Code Poet” shirt is wearing out from frequent use!</p>

<p>NYmom,
If you are interested in supplementing or accelerating in math, we found the Singapore Math series very useful. We used it for DS2 to supplement the English and art problems he got in math class. He is good in math, but needed more direct instruction and practice than DS1, in part due to huge discrepancies on the WISC-II subtests and fine motor problems. They are not expensive and have a logical method of problem solving.</p>

<p>I hear everyone about the art projects! DS2 had one in Geometry in 8th grade and got a 50% on it. Had to bring in his LD eval reports and have a conference with the teacher to make him realize that DS’s “apparent lack of effort” was in fact, his LDs showing up loud and clear.</p>

<p>We have told people many times that the GT program DS1 landed in saved his life. On the first day of the 4th grade program, he was one of a swarm of kids surrounding and eagerly chatting with one boy who had a notebook in his hand. What was the big attraction? “Mom, XXX has an INVENTION NOTEBOOK – just like I do!!!” These kids are now juniors and while some are at different programs, they are still in touch. I can’t say enough about the power of intellectual age peers to make a difference in a kid’s emotional outlook and development.</p>

<p>DS2 went through the same elem program as DS1, and then went on to other highly gifted programs for middle school and high school. His LDs are a bit more apparent, but I can also vouch for his experiences. The teachers at the HG programs were FAR more knowledgeable about learning differences and issues than any teachers we found in the regular schools. They expected the kids to be asynchronous and dealt with it as a matter of course. DS2 needed graph paper for lining up long math problems – no big deal – there were six other kids who needed it, too.</p>

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<p>“My older son (in an accelerated HS math course) is periodically required to write about his feelings about math, write biographies of mathematicians, write advertisements about math.”</p>

<p>I got one on you- my son had to compose a song about math and sing it to the class; create a “newspaper” using fictitious current events based on math; present/teach a math unit from the textbook in POETRY form; make a Christmas tree ornament using math as a theme; create a video about a mathematician or scientist who used math.</p>

<p>These types of things inevitably would lower his final grade. When he got up into Calculus, he found that he was actually very good at math (surprise surprise). The funny thing is, when he finally ended up in AP Calc in hs, the teacher was mortified at how unprepared some of the kids in the class were- the same kids who had made A’s in the lower maths. S thought the fluffy assignments actually “hid” how well the students were really doing in math.</p>

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<p>Mathmom, I want one of those T-shirts, too, for my older son, who has taught himself to program in C++. </p>

<p>CountingDown, Do you know how Singapore Math compares to EPGY? I think EPGY is wonderful, but it is very expensive. You are fortunate to have GT programs available. We have nothing in the public schools. My older son has been saved by CTY in the summer and occasional programs at MIT, and we are hoping that he will go to an independent HS (keeping fingers crossed for decisions this week). </p>

<p>Doubleplay, Those assignments are unbelievable!</p>

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<p>Why are we so worried, for lack of a better word, about math whizzes being able to communicate? Think about it…we have engineers, scientists, programmers who need to be able to communicate their work to laypeople for funding, for grants, for legal reasons, and from experience we have seen that many really smart people can’t share their thoughts in understandable ways</p>

<p>also, I don’t really have a problem with the “blending” of the subjects, why not use teachable moments to get across concepts- ie, learn vocabulary, logical thinking, sure some is busy work, but it is teaching the whole person- some work seems silly, of course, but there can be a balance struck so that math track kids get skills so they can take that math into the world and the work environment-</p>

<p>And maybe some of the work is seems silly, but if you had math majors who only do math, without learning how to market themselves, teach it, share their findings, write for journals…</p>

<p>As for the son not getting what looseleaf meant, that could be a sign he isn’t paying attention to other things in class</p>

<p>I am not making assumptions, but there is something to be said for putting pieces together…if the teacher does use that word, then the student should be able to pick that up in the class</p>

<p>the teacher sounds a unflexable and impatient, but having worked with lots of kids, albiet volunteering, it can be frustrating when it APPEARS, and I said appears, not reality that a student isn’t paying attention and doesn’t care</p>

<p>smart kids need to learn social skills in environments that may not be as thrilling as they like, because as they get older, at least putting on the face of paying attention is important- ie faking it</p>

<p>as an aside, when my youngest D was in preschool, the school admin suggested holding her back and doing pre-k…my D was smart…their concern? she was small, and seemed immature because of her size, her voice, her carriage…what did I do? I didn’t hold her back, HOWEVER, I found a wonderful young lady who taught acting and allocution. poise, voice modulation, etc. My D was spunky, but I was worried that if she had a tiny voice along with her small frame, she wouldn’t be heard</p>

<p>It was one of the best things I ever did. </p>

<p>I guess my point is, sometimes the brightest student can be pre-judged because of outside appearances, and that is unfair, but it is reality of the world, and while the teacher shouldn’t have made a big deal out of the backward shirt, I think that we as parents have a job to teach our kids how to be “presentable” to the world…sure its just a shirt, but if a kid is so rushed, doesn’t realize, sometimes getting them to slow down can be a big help in all aspects of life</p>

<p>when I was little I was a fast talker, my brain was going a mile a minute, no one could understand me, I knew what I was saying, and I would get frustrated if people didn’t get what I was saying, my father had me practice speaking S L O W L Y, and I mean extra slowly so that people would be able to converse with me…I was 6…at the time, having to do that seemed silly and stupid, but he was right…I needed to be part of the world and learn how to communicate in it</p>

<p>as for my Ds, both are not tall, but they have voices that are strong and powerful, so they are probably taken more seriously than if they had the little girl voices they could have gotten into the habit of using</p>

<p>I guess my point is, is that sometimes there is a kernal of truth and help in something that seems trite, ie that backwards shirt…its not by any means a big issue, however there is something to be said for taking a moment for personal care…that rushing, that hurrying, that impulsiveness carries over to all aspects of life</p>

<p>I will never forget a test I took in 4th grade…the teacher said</p>

<p>Okay, I want you to read the entire test before you answer any questions…she repeated the instructions…</p>

<p>So I did that, and at the end of the test, the final question was…don’t bother with the other questions, just turn in the paper now and circle this question. The questions on the test were really hard, and I could see kids struggling to get through the first question. I walked up with my test, along with ONE other person and turned it in. We got to go to the back of the class and do art- our favorite thing to do, while the other kids couldn’t figure out how we got through the tes so quiclky. Gradually, other kids trickled forward, looking contrite.</p>

<p>Lesson learned, it is not always best to rush through stuff, and think you know better than the teacher, and follwoing directions can be beneficial</p>

<p>To summarize- I see both sides of the issue, and we as parents have to teach our kids that sometimes we just have to go with the flow, and if yo are really smart, you can make it fun, and see that there often is another leason being taught besides math</p>

<p>And I see that often it is busy work, time filler, etc., but hey, I got the idea of making a french dessert for french class, making a poster board presentation for dance class, doing a drawing for geomatry class, and I would help my kids- if she needed help cutting out pictures for the board, I did that, because that wasn’t part of the lesson, it was presenting what you had learned about the history of dance…and being able to explain it…</p>

<p>As my D said, the more they had to explain things, no matter what it was, the stronger they were in ALL subjects</p>

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<p>Just came across this thread. You have my sympathies. The math is one thing. And I agree with you, it is weird. Two of my kids had something similar in elementary school, where they had to illustrate the math problem of the week. They spent a lot of time on artwork, not so much on math. Now the district is back to standard based worksheets, which are a big turn off to young children. I don’t know which is worse . . . Maybe the drawing was better . . .</p>

<p>But, what bothers me more is the criticizing of the turtlenecks and things like that. How can you even tell if someone has a turtleneck on backwards, and who cares? The teacher’s attitude toward your son seems very negative and that is a far bigger concern. I feel for your little guy!</p>

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<p>Doubleplay – I just caught the Christmas tree ornament comment. LOL.</p>

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<p>Well, it’s an education issue and I’m about to tick off more than a few here.</p>

<p>First and foremost, while we all find our children’s behavor and cheeky antics “darling” they seldom are elsewhere viewed that way. Hopping, taping crap on a desk and generally drawing attiention to one’s self without regard to other students is generally going to be met with disipline. I know, I know “but my kid’s shenanagins are cheeky and fun.” Aren’t they all? It also doesn’t mean your kid is the anti-christ either, good kids do some inconsiderate things too. That’s how we learn, when the behavor is corrected. </p>

<p>As far as the issue of proper attire, understand in most states a teacher can lose her/his job if they fail to notice “signs of neglect and/or abuse”. Again what’s quirky about your kid, might in another situation, be because mom is too stoned to care. Until the teacher knows you, he/she can’t guess to the positive side of the coin. The positive side won’t cost a job. </p>

<p>One way to find out about the parent… say something about it. To which the parent “how dare they!”. While angry she makes sure junior has his shirt on correctly from that point on. The too stoned mom doesn’t bother, she’s too stoned. </p>

<p>Math has changed for 3rd graders for a couple of reasons. First, we want to compete with foriegn countries in math. My spouse (coincidently a 30 year 3rd grade teacher, and chair of the district’s highly capable program) has said today’s 3rd graders see math we saw as 5th-6th graders. More math in less time. </p>

<p>Secondly, NCLB has restructed math programs in most states to the new “talk about” math, that currently is so popular. Alot of educators don’t like it either, but they like their jobs more. </p>

<p>My spouse tends to teach several ways to skin a cat, but she also has 30 years to draw on. A newbie isn’t going to have the guts to butt heads with the prinicpal over teaching techniques, nor the experience to know different methods. Now, she does teach what they want, but adds some past methods which worked fine to complement the new. </p>

<p>Teachers don’t get to pick the methods they will use to educate anymore. NCLB is attempting to create a single learning style. A one sized fits all. Even so far as every elementary must do math at the same time and be on the same page. Rigid structure is replacing educational creativity. We are getting closer to widget production everyday. </p>

<p>Which bodes well for private schools whom for some reason are exempt from NCLB. Hmm? I know as we over structure publics to make every kid the same, the unchallenged kids whom have the finanical means to leave public will flee.
An interesting ripple effect, no?</p>

<p>NCLB is or was not set up to deal with the highly capable kids. It is a unfunded punitive concept designed to push both bottom and top to the middle. Just enough to get through HS. NCLB isn’t a college prep program and NCLB holds every public school district hostage in America. We didn’t vote to do more for kids, we voted to make all kids the same. </p>

<p>Remember that when you vote from school board to legislature. These are the people that design public education. If you want school districts to promote programs for the highly capable you must press both your school board and politicos to make it happen. I’ve had this discussion with our super especially over math in my district because our state’s NCLB test which we are now teaching to, doesn’t prepare a kid for college level math. </p>

<p>A school district doesn’t receive praise for how many kids go to college, they received criticisms of how many kids drop out. They are only dealing with the complaints they receive, as any of use would. If you don’t hear about it, it must not be a problem or concern. </p>

<p>Having two kids go through two different math programs the holes become very evident. While I encourage efforts to bring the bottom up, I don’t want to see it at the expense of those who want more. But public school dollars only go so far and if you face losing your job if you don’t follow plan A (NCLB) over plan B (gifted advanced programs) you get the results you’re complaining about. </p>

<p>Do educators have a moral obligation to students and ignore NCLB? Well does your house payment care if you’re doing the right thing? :slight_smile: It’s another reason teachers are leaving the field. Not the only one, but it’s certainly helping. Not because these are bad educators, they’re tired educators.</p>

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<p>Citygirlsmom…I had that same test, more than once, including in a required workshop on a job a couple of years ago (we all complained about having to take this seminar: the title was something like “The Importance of Clear Verbal & Written Communications on the Job Site”-- the first thing we did in the workshop was take this “questionaire”–same directions to read the whole thing through before filling it in…reward was getting to leave the seminar if you’d handed it in with no written answers. You also had some great points about communication skills needed later in life (although if the “superbrain nerds” of the world could all communicate & blend in with the normal folk, what would the sit-com and ad writers do for material?)</p>

<p>I agree that some blending of subjects can be beneficial, especially when it’s used to show students how subject matters relates to everyday life (like showing the connection between geometric concepts and architectural design ideas.) But I still draw the line at grading based on non-subject material (i.e. points off for spelling errors in written math explanations, unattractive artwork on an English assignment, etc.)</p>

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<p>“But I still draw the line at grading based on non-subject material (i.e. points off for spelling errors in written math explanations, unattractive artwork on an English assignment, etc.)”</p>

<p>You might want to rethink that a little bit. I understand your point, but spelling errors are spelling errors they need to be corrected when discovered. </p>

<p>As far as art, if it’s part of the assignment yes, it should be. But since I do get to look at alot of these types of things… I do see total lack of effort vs. lack of skill. There’s a difference and it should be pointed out… I see some kids who make no effort at all, should a teacher let that go? Is that doing the kid a favor? </p>

<p>Fortunately or unfortunately a good teacher can’t let a kid skate by. They are doing their job by pointing these things out and wanting them corrected. That’s their job. If they’re good at it, they’re going to seem nitpicky every so often. </p>

<p>The other unappreiciated aspect of that some of you are missing is this… They are actually looking at your kids work and going through it. Feedback positive or negative is far better than none. While you may not like it, at least appreicate somebody besides you is reviewing your child’s work. </p>

<p>You don’t have to agree 100% of the time with the teacher, but understand alot of the complaints stem from the disagreement of what the teacher saw when reviewing the schoolwork. He or she actually looked hard enough to be critical. </p>

<p>So does that make them friend or foe? Are your friends only the ones who say exactly what you want? hmm. We loved our “nit pickers” cause they loved our kids enough to pick, that meant our kids were worth something to that teacher.</p>