3rd grade math - am I crazy or are they?

citygirlsmom · February 13, 2007, 1:32pm

At my Ds HS, as freshman, they would often get papers back with two grades, on for content, and one for “Structure”- spelling, punctuation, grammer, etc. It was very helpful and fair.

I think that should be done more often, expecially at the beginning of a “concept”

I was trying not to stereotype, but being a mom, having a mom who was a teacher, I have seen kids who good ace any math or science they did, but couldn’t write a decent paper

Opie made some excellent points- a 3rd grader should be able to sit in class without doing experiments with tape…for safety reason they are told to walk in the hallways, and often staff just has to say, you can only WALK to the fountain- so they don’t have to negotiate what is okay to do- well I was skipping, not running…

I did yard duty at my kids school for 8 years, all grades, and at first, some of the rules drove me crazy, but after awhile, I saw how important most of the rules were, and I even made up some of my own

kids will push the limits, and they often need black and white rules for safety, and if the teacher has to remind a kid over and over to not hop or skip to the fountain, or in the halls, because that kid doesn’t listen, nor care, I can understand a teacher’s frustration

I had kids who would push each other into someone else…it was a way of pushing a 3rd person and calling it an “accident”- we just had to make astrict rule, no pushing ANYONE, not even a friend…seemed draconian, but kids were getting hurt

so often, we may not see the bigger picture, that is not saying I agree totally with the teacher’s style or methods, but sometimes we we do take a good look at our kid and what they may be contributing to the situation

if the student isn’t writing what is needed, and takes short cuts, that will reflect in all their other work

mathmom · February 13, 2007, 1:51pm

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CountingDown · February 13, 2007, 1:51pm

nymom,
Singapore Math books were about $20/semester when I ordered them. They can be done self-study or a parent can guide the kids through. It’s unlike EPGY in that respect. I have some here if you want to have a look-see. Feel free to PM me!

DS1 is doing USAMTS this year – interesting problem solving competition for high schoolers, though I am pretty sure younger kids can also participate. DS1 likes it because it is giving him a lot of proof-writing experience, which is very hard to get in HS math courses. He’s sorry he didn’t get into it sooner.

If your older S likes programming, I strongly recommend USACO. It’s been one of the best things DS has done in HS. There are 5-6 competitions a year, but more importantly, a terrific training curriculum. It encourages algorithmic-based programming and problem solving. No forcing code in this realm!

nebcat · February 13, 2007, 2:00pm

OpiefromMayberry…I too have a great deal of experience both as a consumer of public education (4 kids, 23rd & last year with child in public school system) and a background & relatives in education. I taught preschool myself for nearly 20 years…I get your points on “my kid is darling & precocious,but yours is an undisciplined brat.” I dealt with the same thing many times over the years. I come from a family of educators (mother, 3 sisters all teachers…including SPED, ESL and regular classroom teaching.) Yes, it’s good to also have a pro looking at your child’s work. What’s not good is allowing the sometimes-not-as-professional to apply unrealistic standards, such as those in my previous posting: marking an English paper down to a “C” because the Zodiac figures were depicted as the astronomical map version instead of actually drawing a female figure holding the scales for Libra, etc? And he didn’t “color” the picture? In kindergarten, the papers are graded according to whether or not you color the picture…that’s usually the actual assignment: color the clown’s cap blue, etc. On a 4th grade English paper, art should not be graded unless it actually is part of the curriculum to blend the classes. In that case there’s usually an art teacher instructing alongside the English teacher, and it’s clearly stated that the paper will include both an Art grade & an English grade. Not the case here:these kids had art class, in a separate art room with a professional art teacher 3 times a week: and Art was graded on the report cards as a separate subject. They did not need Art instruction in the English class, nor did they need their English grade to depend on their artistic skill, coloring capabilites, etc.

doubleplay · February 13, 2007, 2:21pm

grading on subject-
I understand the need for mathematicians and scientists to be able to express themselves coherently- but poetry?? song??

I never complained about the math assignments requiring my S to use powerpoint or other aids to present and teach a math unit to the class. But honestly- what does making an ornament or making up fictitious current events have to do with math?

As a parent, I want the grade report to assess my child’s strengths and weaknesses accurately. I don’t want to find out after three years of highschool math, that my B student can hardly break 500 on the math SAT and isn’t ready for Trig, because his fluff assignments and extra credit have been masking C’s and D’s on the tests.

If they’re going to incorporate verbal skills into math classes, they need to at least indicate the impact of one on the other so parents really know where their children stand.

Another observation- I’ve never seen a situation where math skills have been significantly incorporated into English or Humanities classes. (I’m talking Algebra, Trig, Calc, etc- not Tables, Maps, or Measurements).

tokenadult · February 13, 2007, 2:26pm

That’s a very important point. Indeed, a fair amount of social studies in most schools is based on mathematical fallacies about well known facts of economics.

midmo · February 13, 2007, 2:30pm

The “taping crap on a desk” was a reference to my post above. First, he wasn’t taping anything onto a desk, he was using tape and paper to make sculptures. However, that is irrelevant, because you missed the whole point of the anecdote. I certainly did not find it “darling” that he wasted his school time with such activities. In fact I found it extremely annoying that he didn’t spend the dead time doing something more useful. Then I discovered from his teacher that he was not allowed to do anything–anything–when he finished assignments early. No reading, no extra math, no drawing. All of that would have made the rest of the class feel bad. He was told to sit still with his hands folded.

Sorry, Opie, but I don’t think there is any excuse for asking a third grader to sit and do absolutely nothing at all. You claim to be aghast at one-size-fits-all regimentation. Requiring every kid to spend exactly the same amount of time on every in-class assignment fits that bill pretty well, don’t you think?

Although it wasn’t my kid who was chastised for hopping on one foot, I’ll go to bat for that little guy, too. WHO CARES if a little boy hops on one foot instead of walking on two?

I was a Cub Scout and a Girl Scout leader for many years, and there were many times I wished the kids would sit still to make my role easier, but I came to realize that most kids want to move because that’s how kids are; in most cases they aren’t trying to “draw attention to themselves without regard to others”. I don’t find disruptive behavior “fun” and I don’t like “cheeky”, but nobody has mentioned any behavior of that sort on this thread.

mstee · February 13, 2007, 2:42pm

midmo – the tape thing brings back memories. We used to make things with glue during downtime in elementary school. There is a lot of that in school, then and now. Never got in trouble for it though. I don’t think most teachers care that much about things like that, if one is doing it quietly. Some teachers give young children little balls of wax to fiddle around with, keep their hands busy, because they know that will help them to tune in when they are supposed to be sittling quietly, listening to the lesson.

doubleplay · February 13, 2007, 2:52pm

This brings back memories- I had the best 5th and 6th grade Social Studies/Science teacher. If we were done with our table work, he let us go in the back of the room and work on the bulletin board. There was a HUGE bulletin board, and it was always a work in process for the students, as long as we were fairly quiet.

jbusc · February 13, 2007, 2:57pm

I remember those art assignments disguised as other subjects. For english class, especially, if we read a book we would have to draw scenes from the book, or create paper mache models, etc. And this was high school! Even driver’s ed wasn’t immune. We had to draw different examples of different traffic situations.

Paradoxically, even though english is/was my second worst subject (after art), when I took AP English in high school, my grades went up(!) mainly due to the reduction in stupid art assignments. :)

OpiefromMayberry · February 13, 2007, 2:58pm

"The “taping crap on a desk” was a reference to my post above. First, he wasn’t taping anything onto a desk, he was using tape and paper to make sculptures. However, that is irrelevant, because you missed the whole point of the anecdote. I certainly did not find it “darling” that he wasted his school time with such activities. In fact I found it extremely annoying that he didn’t spend the dead time doing something more useful. Then I discovered from his teacher that he was not allowed to do anything–anything–when he finished assignments early. No reading, no extra math, no drawing. All of that would have made the rest of the class feel bad. He was told to sit still with his hands folded. "

And you worked with your teacher to solve this situation yes? What was the solution? And yes the tapping part is illrelevant because it could be one of dozens of inappropriate behavor. It was just one I read here. I didn’t catch it was yours.

“Sorry, Opie, but I don’t think there is any excuse for asking a third grader to sit and do absolutely nothing at all. You claim to be aghast at one-size-fits-all regimentation. Requiring every kid to spend exactly the same amount of time on every in-class assignment fits that bill pretty well, don’t you think?”

Now did I ever say that? I did say disruptions aren’t good. Are they? even if it’s your kid. As far as the requirements, as I said alot of districts are going to every elementary on task at the same time everyday. I didn’t vote for the guy who brought this about, did you? Just another underthought piece of legislation.

"Although it wasn’t my kid who was chastised for hopping on one foot, I’ll go to bat for that little guy, too. WHO CARES if a little boy hops on one foot instead of walking on two? "

Right up until he falls into another kid and splits that kid’s lip and chips a tooth when he falls? If it’s your kid he falls into is it still peachy? Even when the dental bills come?

"I was a Cub Scout and a Girl Scout leader for many years, and there were many times I wished the kids would sit still to make my role easier, but I came to realize that most kids want to move because that’s how kids are; in most cases they aren’t trying to “draw attention to themselves without regard to others”. "

Wrong. Most kids are selfish early in life, it’s a survival skill. They learn the when and where it’s appropriate as they get older. It’s how we all are made up.

I have spent many years working with kids in different activities. Some children seek attiention be it positive or negative because it’s still attiention.

My spouse is dealing with one “only child” right now that will deliberately disrupt the class to get recess in because he wants one to one time. He’s actually very good 1/1 and behaves totally different. When the rest of the class is present he fights everything very step of the way. The thing is there are 25 other kids who all want the same 1/1 time and they all have to learn to allow others room to learn.

“I don’t find disruptive behavior “fun” and I don’t like “cheeky”, but nobody has mentioned any behavior of that sort on this thread.”

generic terms. I tend to read the post, I don’t focus on who made it. I can see may have to treat you with kinder gentler gloves as you personalize things and then fail to see any grey between extremes. That is why I added even good kids get in trouble from time to time, it does not make them evil. does it?

I think if you review my points about the atheletes and college preference you’d find that I’m fairly reasonable. I’ve got wonderful kids, it took alot of beatings to get them there. Thank god my arm held out.

Even wonderful kids screw up from time to time. Even mine, even yours.

midmo · February 13, 2007, 3:02pm

What a good idea. Funny coincidence that you mentioned that. We recently had a gathering here. I put out some gouda cheese, the kind that is wrapped in red wax. When cleaning up, I found several little red, waxy, flower sculptures sitting around the kitchen, attached to wine bottle corks by toothpicks. The little guy isn’t little anymore, but he still likes to fiddle with his hands when bored (in this case with adult conversation).

OpiefromMayberry · February 13, 2007, 3:07pm

“marking an English paper down to a “C” because the Zodiac figures were depicted as the astronomical map version instead of actually drawing a female figure holding the scales for Libra, etc? And he didn’t “color” the picture?”

Do you know if both these things were asked as part of the assignment?

hmm. passive aggressive is a wonderful trait.
Let’s see, teacher asked me to color this and I don’t want to.
So I won’t. Mom will defend me because she thinks it’s stupid anyway as it’s an english paper. Do you not see the possibility of a different issue here?

I will only follow the instructions I like or want to…

Is that really something that is healthy for a young inexperienced child?

Is that acceptable behavor. When you asked your child to bathe or brush their teeth and they didn’t did you just say OK and forget about it? “Well that’s different?” how so?

As long as the instructions are not harmful to the child or anyone else, shouldn’t you encourage following them? At least when a child is still far too young to decide the merits?

OpiefromMayberry · February 13, 2007, 3:12pm

quietly.*

Hey, there’s a reaccuring theme. I think that is the crux of the situation for most educators. Having something quietly to do while others finish up.

Having been in several third grade classes over the years, I know my spouse can wrangle cats. Cause five days a week she has to. :)

midmo · February 13, 2007, 3:15pm

Fire away, Opie. I’ve always needed to develop thicker skin.

However, and please don’t take this as aggression, or criticism: I think it is you who personalizes any and every criticism of any teacher anywhere as if it is your wife who is being criticized. There is a very vast difference between having no respect for the profession, and pointing out particular instances of policies that make no sense.

I think your obvious love and respect for your wife is charming, but nonetheless many of us have some heart-felt criticisms of the education offered our children. I guess we could have a thread about the wonderful experiences we have had with some of our teachers, but it wouldn’t lead to discussions about policies that need to be reformed.

I agree that there are many problems with NCLB, and even the original proponents of the plan are on board with altering it. Much of the impetus for change has come about because articulate and dedicated teachers have made their case well. Kudos to them.

midmo · February 13, 2007, 3:34pm

Since you asked Opie, I’ll respond. As I mentioned in the earlier post, she didn’t like my suggestion to let him go the media center and choose a ‘research’ book. She told him he would have to “just sit and think about things” until the rest of the class finished their assignments. He got a lot of thinking in that year.

And BTW, we were always very careful not to criticize any teacher in front of our kids. This one actually was one of the better ones of his elementary years.

StickerShock · February 13, 2007, 3:40pm

Here’s an ADD “need to fiddle tip” I learned from S’s 4th grade teacher: Take a strip of adhesive velcro and secure it to the bottom of a kid’s desk. When he feels the urge to fiddle with things (which is VERY distracting to others,) he can just rub the velcro under his desk & nobody is disturbed.

This was a terrific teacher who LISTENED whn I told her some of son’s annoying behaviours she should be on the lookout for, but I didn’t know how to correct. She actually never had to use it, but I knew this woman would be a great resource to consult for any question on academic, social, or behavioral issues.

Last night I had S bring his homework to the kitchen table so I could review it. As he stood by my side, he grabbed a keychain & started jiggling it. Maddening! He doesn’t even realize he’s doing this. After I took that away, he managed to grab a hotwheel car & fiddle with that. ADD kids aren’t all bouncing off the walls, but they do fidget. With 20+ kids in a classroom, all doing their little quirky things, it is very important to set limits.

StickerShock · February 13, 2007, 3:43pm

midmo, that sure is unreasonable. My S’s 4th grade teacher never had to work with me to solve anything like that. She just did it without fanfare, tears, or distraction. Just hand the kid a book to read quietly, at least!

OpiefromMayberry · February 13, 2007, 3:46pm

"policies that make no sense. "

And I have tried to give you a reasonable explaination for some of these things. My spouse can hold her own, no worries. And after reading the other post I don’t think it’s not me who tries to seek a middle ground or overall understanding.

“have some heart-felt criticisms of the education offered our children”

All I’m trying to do is make sure you know where your criticism should be directed. Instead of killing the messenger, go to the root of the problem.

I’ve explained some things that some here including you are calling defensive reactions.

Well, you aren’t in the room when your spouse comes home after a meeting where she was told if you fail to notify administration of any out of the ordinary marks or unusual things about a student and it turns out that student is a victim of abuse… you will be fired or suspended (interpatation of state laws by administration).

All I am trying to do is point out the “other side” in some of these posts. It’s not that I necessarily disagree with you or someone else, but I have learned the “why” about some issues. It doesn’t mean I like the answer, but I understand it better and know who to direct change towards.

Sitting down with the super to discuss math issued for everybody’s kids is far more effective than blaming the math teacher. The math teacher is just doing what they are required to, they may not like it anymore than you.

What I guess I’m sensitive about is wanting you to KNOW who to blame for a problem. That’s just like blaming the troops for the war. They didn’t decide to start it, they just have to deal with it.

OpiefromMayberry · February 13, 2007, 3:59pm

“As I mentioned in the earlier post, she didn’t like my suggestion to let him go the media center and choose a ‘research’ book. She told him he would have to “just sit and think about things” until the rest of the class finished their assignments. He got a lot of thinking in that year.”

question? is the media center in the room?
Could he possibly have a book at his desk to read quietly?
Also is his work spot on, without need of corrections?

Not personal questions, don’t be offended.
If he has to get up and leave the classroom bad, if he has to get up and move around when others are working at their desks bad. Bad as far as classroom distractions to others go.

Reading quietly at his desk? wasn’t an option? How much free time did he usually have? If we’re talking about 1-3 minutes he certainly would be just fine doing nothing. If we are talking 5 minutes or more, a book would be nice as long as he put it down when told.

Is his work 100%? While I’m sure it is, some kids race through as sloppy as they can to finish something so they can go do something else. If his work is spot on, and he’s finishing with five or more minutes to kill a book to read quietly at his desk wouldn’t be out of line, in my opinion, and my spouse’s.
But the work has to be perfect. If not, that extra time should be spent perfecting it, no?

Now these are general answers to the possibilities of the situation. I don’t know your kid and don’t know if he’s a devil or angle or somewhere inbetween.

Also to be considered is the rest of the class. Can they handle the situation? Or do other kids stop working and start watching your kid do somehting else?
Is it possible that the reason the teacher has this policy more to do with others than yours? Is it possible?

If you want to call it defensive fine. I just try to apply experience and see if there’s a reasonable explaination to the situation. Did any of your discussion go over these things? Could you have brought them up? Did you ask why that was the teacher’s policy?

3rd grade math - am I crazy or are they?

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