3rd grade math - am I crazy or are they?

Parent Cafe
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<p>Opie,</p>

<p>Believe me, I agree that most of the problems we encountered (and I don’t mean to exaggerate the number of problems) were due to policies out of the hands of the teachers. In fact, I am a strong proponent of going to the top with my complaints. I am not popular with the local school board, even though I do try hard to play nice. In this state, many of the educational deficiencies (as I define them) are due to state-wide law, and I spend plenty of time lobbying the legislature, as well.</p>

<p>I recently spent a long day with several science teachers as I accompanied them, as an extra chaperone, to a competition out of town. Boy did I get an earful about their problems with the administration and its curriculum dictates! Too bad I can’t repeat their stories, because they swore me to silence, for fear of losing their jobs. All is not well in the world of education.</p>

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<p>I’m not a complainer, but I think asking a kid to do nothing if they finish early borders on torture. Was that the same kid who was hopping from the fountain? Any wonder that they were fidgety? Do you tell a kid to stop hopping? Sure. But why does Mom need to hear about it too, unless it’s a constant problem? I wish more teachers had routines for the gifted kids who are stuck in classrooms with kids of all abilities. My son had a wonderful third grade teacher, but even so, he manage to read a 450 page novel in two days in her classroom.</p>

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<p>mid and math,</p>

<p>we agree more than you think. mid we do the same thing. the only difference may be I have a spouse in that loop of frustration. I’ve seen it for 30 years.
all is not well, you’re correct but let’s make sure we go after those responsible. </p>

<p>mathmom, </p>

<p>I’m a big believer in PE and RECESS both of which have been curtailed because our legislature doesn’t see them as valuable in education. After all, we not raising jocks, we want scientists. What they fail to grasp is even scientists need exercise to release the endorfins in their brains to improve the learning process. </p>

<p>“I wish more teachers had routines for the gifted kids who are stuck in classrooms with kids of all abilities”</p>

<p>I think that comes with experience for a teacher. teachers in their begining years resemble ducks. Calm on the surface, paddling like mad beneath. </p>

<p>It takes some experience to learn how to slip extra things to those who need it either end of the spectrum.</p>

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<p>Ah, another cross post. Opie, I am being completely straightforward here. The teacher was unreasonable. I won’t claim the kid never made a single mistake on his work, but it was rare that any assignment in that class presented a challenge. The dead time, according to the teacher “was never more than thirty minutes”!!!</p>

<p>The media center was down the hall, but given that kids were allowed to leave the room unattended to use the restroom, giving him permission to go to the media center didn’t seem undoable. He was not allowed to read, because then the slower kids would rush through their work so they could read too.</p>

<p>A devil or an angel? He’s a great kid, really, but not perfect. He’s not ADD, but he is a fiddler, and he definitely was “different” than most of his classmates. Oddly enough, the teachers at the gifted program could not stop raving about how wonderful he was–and I mean behavior-wise, enthusiasm for learning, that sort of thing. As you yourself said above, one size doesn’t fit all when it comes to education. Many of the parents posting on this thread are making the same point. </p>

<p>Have a good afternoon. It is a snow/ice day here, and I have yet to finish clearing out my driveway. I’m glad you care so much about education. It is the most important issue of all, isn’t it?</p>

105

<p>“was never more than thirty minutes”</p>

<p>that is unacceptable… you SEE! I can agree with you. :slight_smile:
At that point, I would ask for a combined conference with principal and teacher together to see what a better solution might be. A few minutes is one thing but half an hour isn’t, dare I say it? …reasonable. :)</p>

<p>“He was not allowed to read, because then the slower kids would rush through their work so they could read too.”</p>

<p>that’s one I’ve seen and guessed correctly. But still even with a half hour to kill, the teacher should have found something for your kid to do. </p>

<p>How long had this person taught?</p>

106

<p>Opie, I agree with much that you say, and coming from a family of educators with combined experience of more than a 100 years…yes, it’s not an easy job. But over the years, your spouse has probably tended to tell you more of the “crazy” parents stories…as her sounding board, she’s not apt to tell you about the wonderful student/parent combos, and as mentioned by other posters, I think that you do tend to go a bit overboard on defend-the-teacher-everytime. Yes, there are “crazy” parents and wonderful teachers, but the reverse is also true. And sometimes, there’s just good people doing poor jobs of it, for whatever reason. In the case I was talking about, it was a good artist doing a bad job of teaching. No, the written instructions did not require the art (it was listed as a “fun idea” in the sections that listed “books & movies you also might enjoy on this topic”) Yes, he did a careful, neat job of it (albeit in pencil instead of colored markers.) And no, his parents did not usually allow him to follow only the instructions he wanted to follow. (Quite the opposite-Dad was retired marine drill sergeant…I’m sure you get the picture. First word out of their kids’ mouths was SirYesSir and Yes Mam!) And, in the later meeting with the principal, she admitted she’d judged his artwork to be “failing” quality, but the theme was A quality so she just “averaged” the two to give him a C. She also admitted that she did not take points away on papers lacking artwork. Fact was, she didn’t want to teach in the first place, she wanted to be an artist but knew that’d be hard to pay the bills. So she went for the art education degree…but instead of getting the full-time art teacher job, she got the long-term sub in a regular classroom job instead. She was way too far from what she really wanted to do, and her job performance showed it. That, I think, was the real life lesson there: if you’re not happy with what you’re doing, it’s difficult to do a good job of it.</p>

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<p>Elegant proof writing is the antithesis of the writing displayed in the example. The best proofs are distilled to the absolute minimum required for complete exposition - no more and no less. Extraneous words do more to detract than inform. The type of writing suggested by the OP’s example will have no impact on developing this skill.</p>

<p>Yes, but something that you either don’t understand or have forgotten, is that virtually all elegant proofs did not start out that way. They are crafted and reworked over time. Very often, they are not as the proofs were originally written. </p>

<p>I’ll support the rest of the math folks. It is all too common in the US for students to look at mathematics and problem solving as some sort of exercise in rote memorization. Memorize this formula, this method, etc, at a time that is probably most crucial for mental development. It becomes a crutch. This leads to ineptitude in logic and reasoning - the utmost foundation of mathematics.</p>

<p>Students become highly skilled at reproducing the teacher’s work. They don’t think about what’s going on behind it. Why? It isn’t laziness or stupidity. Quite the opposite. For many/most, school is about making the grade, and not necessarily about truly understanding the material. Its a matter of efficiency. There’s no need to understand what’s going on because it is simply spoonfed. And while they may be able to produce an answer using the methods provided by a teacher, very few have any ability to take what they learned and apply it to a new situation.</p>

<p>That, in my opinion as somebody holding a degree in mathematics, is the utmost measure of learned mathematics. And at that heart must lie solid logic and reasoning skills. It is not simply enough to say “its obvious,” because, of course, everything is an inherent conclusion from some set of axioms. Learning how to not only think logically, but to write logically and soundly is absolutely key in mathematics. The most brilliant mathematician is worthless to the theoretical world if they cannot explain their thoughts and reasoning.</p>

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<p>The new SAT math section has a strong focus on word problem. Having to explain the answer is a kind of way of doing a word problem in reverse.</p>

<p>And boys are “weaker” on average doing word problems, so this idea of having to write down the explanation is not a waste of time as expressed by so many</p>

<p>My D was doing a geomatry problem. She couldn’t figure it out. I didn’t remember the proofs or whatever from all those years ago, but I did remember the process to find the answer. D didn’t believe my answer, silly girl, because she didn’t see all the possiblities and the options of approaching it a different way. Becasuse i was able to explain it to her, from my weak memory, she finally got the answer, and was able to explain it back to me.</p>

<p>My D currently has a AP Stats teacher who can not explain Stats. She can’t go through the steps required to get to the answer, she can’t explain what a symbol means or how to use it, she KNOWS what they are, but was never really taught how to EXPLAIN them.</p>

<p>One thing my teachers used to do for me and other kids in class who finished work fast was to have a pile of fun, educational work sheets for us to do- crossword puzzles, visual puzzles, logic, stuff to stretch the brain. When we turned in the test or finished the reading, we could take a sheet from the pile to work on quietly. She had them on her desk so when you turned in the paper, it was easy to take one. I had several teachers who did that and I suggested it for my Ds teacher. Sometimes it was IQ questions, others it was find the differences between the pictures, or jumble puzzles</p>

<p>Maybe suggest that to the teachers as a quiet way to keep a student busy, while allowing them to use their brains</p>

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<p>what the teacher also did was go over the papers of kids who turned them in too quick…and if she saw a pattern of rushing work to get to the fun stuff, she told the student to go back and double check the paper to make sure it was really all done</p>

<p>this system as it were was pretty effective for all- the teacher just had to be prepared</p>

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<p>my kids attended a small school with limited gifted programs…many of their teachers handled the issue of brighter kids finishing quickly in similar ways as CityMom suggested (challenging/different worksheets on related topics.) Many did allow kids to read (one teacher even used “no reading” as a deterrent to those who loved to read but hated paperwork…including one of my kids. My first reaction was that’s ridiculous, but after thinking about it I realized that was the ultimate punishment for him: you could take away T.V., Video games, even his computer time with little impact but tell him no novels! Whatever he was supposed to do would get done, pronto.) One teacher allowed the gifted kids to mentor other students (each gifted kid was assigned several kids to work with…that was very popular with two of my kids…both kids thought it was fun to try to come up with new ways to explain things when the teacher or the textbook explanation didn’t work. Talk about helping you learn how to think!) The biggest problem we ran into over the years was classroom size & lack of experience. The more experienced teachers were usually more creative & flexible with both gifted kids’ differing needs & curriculum adaptation and naturally the teachers had more time to devote to both gifted and non in the smaller classes. As for overall curriculum changes, we’ve seen many over the years, some good & some bad. I think maybe some of these alternative math ideas are trying to make kids learn how to think. Great idea, just too often a questionable execution. When it works, though, it’s a wonderful skill regardless of career choice.</p>

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<p>I immediately checked to see if you were in WA state, where this kind of essay math shows up on the 4th grade tests. In fact, they like essay math so much that the math WASL (Washington Assessment of Student Learning) has more writing than the <em>writing</em> WASL. It’s absolutely nuts.</p>

<p>However, the goal of a clear explanation is not a bad one… just overemphasized.</p>

112

<p>“I’ll support the rest of the math folks.”</p>

<p>oh, who are the “math folks” you are supporting?</p>

<p>I think everyone posting on this thread values learning to write elegant proofs. But, the type of rhetoric put forth by the OP’s teacher is ridiculous beyond belief - similar to “showing” your work - even when you that you didn’t do any. Perhaps if she had assigned problems of a more appropriate difficulty level - which actually required him to go through a series of steps - he could have explained such. </p>

<p>Don’t tell me that as someone with a “degree in mathematics” your professor required you to write long-winded explanations of that which was “intuitively obvious to the most causal observer”.</p>

113

<p>When my current high school freshman was in 3rd grade, he “flunked” a math “test” — describe a triangle. He drew it, he told how it had 3 sides. However, there were apparently several more details that needed to be listed in order for the assessors to be certain my son actually knew what a triangle is. Fortunately, he had an incredible teacher with years of experience. She had to give the district assessments, but she didn’t focus on that sort of thing. She mixed in the new with the tried & true!</p>

<p>Unfortunately, at the same time, my daughter was a 6th grader dealing with the most ridiculous math program I have ever encountered. For fractions, the kids had to fill small cans and then fill larger cans with the contents of the smaller cans. The fractions were simple, like 1/4 and 1/2. Instead of using math, the kids had to use words to explain what was happening with the fractions. They weren’t allowed to say, “I know that 1/2 is twice as large as 1/4,” or anything similar — they had to “prove” the idea that 1/2 was greater than 1/4 (yes, that was how simple the questions were) by stating something like, “Because the two cans marked C are the same size and can A filled a can C more than can B filled a can C, I know that can A, which is 1/2, is larger than can B, which is 1/4; so 1/2 is greater than 1/4.” My daughter and many of her peers were so far beyond that mathematically that they couldn’t get past the fact that it was a totally useless waste of their time. They already understood the concept of fractions! Maybe that would have been a fine exercise in a much earlier grade …</p>

<p>That program only lasted a year (unfortunately, my child’s year!), but it was filled with ridiculous pseudo-math. It required written explanations for everything! I asked this question of the administration: If you made kids explain HOW they knew what a word was every time they encountered one, would anyone want to read??? If you made kids explain WHY they know what l-a-u-g-h spells, or c-a-u-g-h-t, or k-n-o-w — etc. — they’d run screaming from the room! Why do we expect them to explain everything in math? I am not opposed to explanations, just dumb assignments! </p>

<p>If any of you have kids who have been through a weak integrated math curriculum, you also know how ridiculous this can be. My friend teaches chem at a local community college & said algebra skills are amazingly weak in these kids. The schools here are switching back to traditional math, but it’s too late for many. We have kids who can explain stuff, but they can’t actually do math!</p>

<p>I guess I am just a dinosaur, but I really have problems with this sort of thing.</p>

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<p>The answer “I looked at the hundreds and the thousands” is inadequate…so he looked at the #s…what did he do with the information.</p>

<p>I can see why he was graded down. It wasn’t “obvious” how he arrived at the answer</p>

<p>I had this issue with my D at one point in elementary school</p>

<p>She would say, well the teacher already knows that, she read the story…arrgghhh!!!</p>

<p>So I told her, you have to pretend the teacher never read the story, or did the science experiment. You have to explain why it is relevant the author grew up in SF</p>

<p>When you have a child doing a science fair project and they have to explain each thing and why, the student may get why they need to not take short cuts in explanations.</p>

<p>When I reread the answer, it was incomplete. Saying you looked at them is not the same as explaining what conclusion you drew from looking. Seems sill to some I guess, but there is a clear distinction.</p>

<p>its cool discovering in grade 3 or whatever that any number ending in 0 or 5 is divisible by 5, but why is it?</p>

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<p>

</p>

<p>That’s a reasonable response to some of the extremes found in some recent elementary math programs. I LOVE geometry, but I loved much better doing straightedge-and-compass constructions in a fifth grade enrichment unit than doing dull two-column proofs of theorems I already believed and understood in tenth grade geometry class. (And that I only got a geometry class in tenth grade, rather than eighth, was another flaw of my school’s curriculum.)</p>

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<p>Yes, some programs are a waste of time, and there must a way to balance…my kids have had their share of busy work</p>

<p>I just think we all need to look at all sides</p>

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<p>I do believe there’s a difference between explaining a story- plotline, characters, theme, symbols, whatever; or a science experiment- materials, steps, results, conclusion, etc- versus explaining why you know one number to be greater than another. The latter is truly comparable to explaining how you know l-a-u-g-h spells laugh, whereas the former is complex enough to be worthy of explanation.</p>

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<p>

reflective: Remember that it is not the OP’s teacher. It is the state math asessment that requires this. NJ holds the same “explain the obvious” expectations on our state testing. It would be far worse if the teachers didn’t prepare the kids for what the test will ask of them.</p>

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<p>It all goes back to assessment- I take the grade report seriously. It’s not a game. It’s not a scorecard. To me, it is valuable feedback about how my kids are doing in various subjects. </p>

<p>To indicate that Johnny is an A student in English (because he draws good illustrations or keeps an organized notebook, even though he still can’t read) or is a C student in math (because he didn’t adequately describe his answers) is misleading. As is giving Johnny a D in Spanish even though he aces everything, because he is a behavior problem (give him an F in behavior- that sends a message). Heck, I even have a problem with more than 10% of the final grade being based on homework, since we really don’t know who’s doing the work. Why have a report card if it isn’t going to be reflective of student performance in each skill?</p>

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<p>Johnny can get a failing grade in NY if he gets every answer right, but refuses to show his work.</p>

<p>I know a teacher who was forced to give out a zero on an 8th grader’s ELA essay because they were deemed not to have answered the question. (The question was what would you show a foreign exchange student in your community.) The student wrote a rant about how she wouldn’t show them anything because her town was a bastion of smug upperclass people and she thought there were better places for a foreign exchange student to see.</p>