<p>We are discussing this in circles…lets get bluebayu to explain the stats, because, if 40% had 4.0, then I would guess that 40% of the stats at a good number of colleges would be 4.0, if you get what I am trying to say.</p>
<p>So 40% of the kids got straight A’s (on average-counting a few Bs and AP classes average each other out)</p>
<p>That number seems HIGHLY implausible, and if it is true, some kids aren’t being challenged very much.</p>
<p>It is not that hard to understand where the figure of 40% percent came from. It was only a click away, courtesy of dmd77.</p>
<p>When student take the SAT, they are asked to fill an optional questionaire. Since most students do, TCB has been able to tabulate the results. That is where that so often-quoted correlation between income and SAT scores comes from. According to the date submitted by the STUDENTS 41% have a 4.00 GPA and 89% are above the C level. Only 11% report grades of C and below.</p>
<p>The population does NOT represent the entire US high school school system, but does fairly represent the student who TAKE the SAT. </p>
<p>The comment of Bluebayou was made in the context of a discussion about GPA grades being more valid than SAT scores for admissions. In that context, it is fair to use the 40% figure as the SAT is a common factor in college admissions. </p>
<p>Lastly, the figure of 40% of straight A’s should not be THAT shocking as it is still below the rate of A’s at Harvard and many other super selective schools. Why would the gentlemen’s C not live in high schools? :)</p>
<p>Since the 40% figure is based on self-assessment, doesn’t it seem reasonable to take it with a tablespoon or so of salt? People are prone to exaggerating their accomplishments, and many kids may feel pressured to put the best possible face on their grades as they’re bubbling in that test sheet.</p>
<p>Our school grades (unweighted) on a 5.5 GPA scale: 5.5 is an A-plus, 5.0-5.49 is an A, 4.5 to 4.99 is an A-minus, etc. No one ever graduates with an A-plus because of the way gym grades are factored in, despite the fact that the top kids would certainly have numerical averages between 97 and 99 if grades were reported that way. This isn’t such a bad thing, I’ve realized, since it makes it appear as if there’s little grade inflation (nobody graduating with a 120 average around here).</p>
<p>In 2004, 3 percent of seniors had GPAs in the A range, and 14 percent in the A-minus range. More than 50 percent of the class had grades in the B range, which some might say also constitutes a kind of grade inflation.</p>
<p>I’ve read that 40% figure before, but have always been skeptical about it.</p>
<p>Still , to quote my goodfriend bluebayou “that’s a lot of A’s”. </p>
<p>The point I was picking at was if GPA is so skewed school to school even with everything brought to a standardized UW 4.0 scale ( where 4.0 represents straight A’s without any A+'s possible ), what then becomes the adcom’s best friend? We’ve hammered standardized testing till it’s see-through, class rank is not always a reliable or even available indicator, and we just did-in GPA. I guess they should just come live at the house for a while and see if they like her.</p>
<p>Wow. What this means to me is that the sage parents who have been urging us to have our 06 and later kids show interest to the school and to every part of the application process without exception are spot-on . Whether it be interviews, rec’s , essays, short answers, ec’s and community service, level of interest shown or the big 4 -grades, courseload quality, class rank, and testing - all are equally capable of skewering you.Those that will rely upon GPA and test scores alone to qualify them for selective college admissions or slightly less selective colleges’ institutional merit aid considerations, they could be in for a painful springtime, or even worse -caught with their underwear around their ankles. A hearty “thank you elders” from the uninitiated.</p>
<p>" According to the date submitted by the STUDENTS 41% have a 4.00 GPA"</p>
<p>I think some of this self-reported data is incorrect due to a poorly written question. The problem is that many schools weight grades, and many don’t. If you attend a school that weights grades and you have a weighted GPA of above 4.0, you are likely to check the box saying you have a 4.0 or above - because you DO! But you earned this weighted 4.whatever by earning a B in AP calc, a Bplus in honors English, an A in tennis (perhaps an unweighted course.) etc. The question is essentially meaningless because of all the differences in grading scales, weighting and non-weighting, etc.</p>
<p>And FWIW, curmudgeon, I’m with you. I’ve read way too much about how the SAT’s, PSAT’s, etc. are terrible and ought to be thrown out, and I don’t agree at all. Thank goodness there is one measure that is the same across the nation, and that all students have an equal shot at. (I know that this is also subject to debate - but anyone can get the test prep book out of the library and study on their own, given a little initiative.) At my kid’s school grades are weighted, and there is only one val, and grade inflation is not rampant. But I know this is not the case everywhere. </p>
<p>Also, BTW, our school district has a policy that specifies that non-academic factors cannot be figured into academic grades. In other words, selling the most donuts for the fundraiser does not give you extra-credit. Some of you might want to encourage your schoolboards to adopt similar policies. Reading about other school districts policies has been a wakeup call to me - I now realize how lucky my family is to have the school district and system that we have!</p>
<p>Thanks Xiggi, and Cur. Sorry I went to bed. :)</p>
<p>Our cc family is mainly focused on top school and top HS courses. Don’t forget that we now mainstream kids, where Spec Ed kids receive A’s (at least in our state), and while, our kids maybe in honors/ap courses at competitive schools (we had 10 A’s in honors eng last year out of 110 kids), A’s and B’s are given out like candy in many college prep classes.</p>
<p>While I do agree that the self-reported data can be skewed, self-reporting has a long history in social science data collection, so I wouldn’t discount it outright. Plus, I don’t think the CB would publish it necessarily if they thought it bogus. </p>
<p>That being said, I do think that the data includes high schools that weight grades, and some kids may factor in PE to make themselves feel better. The question remains, however: without the SAT, how can an adcom separate a ~4.4 from our local HS (theoretical max since we weight based on the UC system), from a 4.7 at Wooten in Maryland (they award bonus points for every honors course, I think), vs. great grades from top privates (Exeter, Andover), or top publics (Thomas Jefferson, New Trier, Stuy)? Essentially, ALL those kids have straight A’s.</p>
<p>Curmudge - have you had a look at the School Profile your D’s Guidance Office provides with the transcript? </p>
<p>Our PHS includes a number of items, but they believe that the distribution of GPA’s is the most important “stat” on the profile. On a 100-point scale, fewer than 10% have a 94 or above. The next 10% is crowded at 92-94. An A at our school is 93. So, that is aroaund 10-15% with an A “average”, let alone “straight A’s.” </p>
<p>At our school, straight A’s in any grading period is High Honors. Maybe 4-6 of 135 students have that in any one grading period. They tend to be the ones taking the tough course as well.</p>
<p>To our school, this clarifies that the school is NOT a grade-inflation school.</p>
<p>jmmom:</p>
<p>your point reinforces mine, in that our school district does not (refuses?) to report grade distribution…thus, an adcom has absolutely no way to calibrate scores across high school. </p>
<p>I gotta believe (fervently hope?) that we’re not the only school district with that policy.</p>
<p>No jmmom, but I will be looking to see what is in the profile at first opportunity.</p>
<p>Man, that would really be awful (not to mention inaccurate) to come from our little burgh as one of the two kids with straight A’s throughout high school in the hardest courses available and the adcom go “ho-hum another 4.0 uw from Hooterville”. D and her dear friend are 1 and 2 with 4.7’s. 3 is behind by a couple of tenths. 4 through 6, I’d guess are also above 4.0 weighted. So maybe 4% are above 4.0 and that’s weighted. 4.0uw? Two this year (so far, anyway), none last year.</p>
<p>Curmudgeon, you are about to realize what an important role a correct profile plays. I have posted several times -mostly on the old board- about the importance to scrutinize the profile BEFORE entering in 9th grade, and monitor its changes duting the HS career of your offspring. If there is one area where GC can and should shine is in making sure that your target schools understand the dynamics of your HS. There is NOTHING worse than a school being unknown, especially by its on doing. Some schools are offering, in a desperate attempt to muddy the waters, a very sketchy and nebulous profile. As you know, in Texas some schools are attempting to maximize their top 10% by magically extending the first decile with numerous ties for 9th and 10th percentiles. Their hope is that UT-Austin or Texas A&M won’t catch the stretch. However, unclear ranking and grading procedure WILL hurt students at selective schools because adcoms will not invest a whole lot of time decyphering the arcane profile and transcript from Bumpkin High, especially if the school is not known to send many candidates in their direction. While there are some real advantages for students who graduate from unknown schools, parents need to be cautious about the practices of the school and encourage the GC and principals to be as clear and forthcoming as possible. </p>
<p>As Cur as said, it seems that every component of the admission is being criticized as unfair, biased or flawed - no need to restate the criticisms! However, it is fair to assume that one of the major elements is to allow the adcoms to evaluate how a student does in his or own environment. In this regard, one of the major yardstick is the presence of a bona fide TOUGH curriculum at the school. That is how and why adcoms can recognize the differences between schools such as Exeter and Bubba High in South Central Texas. Speaking about predictors, a student who excels in a tough program is recognized as the best predictor for success in college, which may be represented in vastly different GPA’s. That is why the stories about GPA being a great predictor need to add a huge caveat: verifiable and comparable GPA’s provide valid predictiosn, and not all GPA pass the smell test. </p>
<p>The bottom line: if you come from a small and unknown school, you should verify how the school stack up against better known schools. It is important to have a realistic evaluation of the school. A school that routinely sends out glowing rec letters filled with best in my career, pretend to offer a toughest program but shows a high GPA and poor standardized test scores WILL lose much appeal. Next, you will need a realistic evaluation of the individual student performance and you may have to twist the arm of the GC to work with you when venturing from from the safe paths.</p>
<p>One of the most difficult aspects of the whole situation is how kids from competitive schools (and I do not consider a school where 1/3 of the class has a 90% GPA or above to be competitive) are hurt – and they are – by the perception that they are “lazy” when they have 1300s and B+/B= averages. At one of the mid-range schools to which dd applied, she was in the top 1/4 of the applicant pool for her scores and in the bottom 1/4 for her grades – a school where the average for both was about 1200/3.8. At her high school the one or 2 kids with a GPA in that range would probably have SATs above 1500. What happens to these kids who have A averages but SATs in the 1100 range – is the grade inflation at colleges as bad as it is in their high schools?</p>
<p>The thing is - we’re not seeing any confirmation of the 40% figure - and CC posters are the kind of people who would know. In California, the top 4% (academic) GPA at each school is a significant figure for UC, so that cutoff is pretty public. While the final figures haven’t been determined, my son has been told that he is at least in the running for top 4% with a 3.9 weighted academic GPA. So obviously there’s not 40% 4.0s here…</p>
<p>I still do wonder how much hs profile counts. Our hs sends a profile with the transcript, but do colleges care? When they publish the gpa range is … or ave. gpa is… it does not spell out the difficulty of the hs, or difficulty level of courses taken. I would think that universities look better accepting those with higher act/sats and higher gpas regardless of the competitive nature of the hs. I would think that if one is wealthy enough to afford standardized test tutoring and academic tutoring, and comes from a less competetive hs, where As are dispensed more readily, one will be more likely get into a more competitive university.</p>
<p>I don’t think it’s true. “40% of applicants to XYZ University” or “40% of applicants to X-type university” perhaps, but as far as mere mortal high school graduates go, according to the National Center for Educational Statistics, the mean gpa went from 2.68 in 1990 to 2.94 in 2000. I doubt that the 2005 number has skyrocketed to 4.0. <a href=“http://nces.ed.gov/pubsearch/pubsinfo.asp?pubid=2004455[/url]”>The High School Transcript Study: A Decade of Change in Curricula and Achievement, 1990-2000;
<p>Colleges and high schools are quite different; I don’t think parallels should be drawn.</p>
<p>It is true that the Gentleman’s C has largely been replaced by a B. It has been gone for quite a while. When I was in college in the 1960s, a number of profs actually did not believe in grades. A nationally known prof who was visiting, announced that students would get Bs just for showing up to class, though he would not be taking attendance. I think this attitude has largely disappeared from campuses.</p>
<p>I believe that if one were to look at grade distributions at HYP, the number of As would be relatively small compared to A-s. Furthermore, in these elite schools (as in others) there are many profs who believe that the students should not be graded on a curve. They argue that they should be free to give as many As as the students deserve; at top colleges, the proportion of students who would qualify is likely to be higher than at large and academically diverse institutions. This is particularly true of smaller classes where the students are often self-selected, better motivated and better prepared than in the large introductory classes which have prospective majors and non-majors, the latter often reluctant and somewhat disengaged attendants.<br>
Any college has some gut courses and some profs who are known to be easy graders, but that is different from the situation in high school which is more the results of structural rather than individual factors.</p>
<p>Unless a high school is a magnet or private school, it draws from a larger pool of students of varying abilities. These students go into remedial, college prep, honors and AP classes. In each of these different categories of classes, they have the opportunity to earn As as well as Bs and Cs. Some schools weight grades and some do not. In our school, which does not, a student could have a straight A average taking only college prep classes; it would be the stellar student who could earn straight As taking only Honors and APs.</p>
<p>Interestingly, when our high school introduced heterogeneous classes some years back, high achieving students were concerned with the dumbing down effect on the curriculum; struggling students expressed dismay at having to compete with high achieving students. How could they hope to make As and Bs when competing with academic stars? They felt demoralized even before classes had begun.</p>
<p>
Not sure I agree with this. Our hs profile is 2 sides of one page. It includes description of the education level of the community (% college grads.% advanced degrees), profile of hs teaching staff, outline of course levels and #APs offered, how GPAs calculated.</p>
<p>It includes description of participation of students in athletics, arts and other ECs and snapshot of types of awards school groups have won in athletic, music, theatre productions.</p>
<p>It shows average SATs, # NM commendeds and semi-finalists, distribution of AP scores. It lists % which go on to post-secondary education and list of schools last year’s graduates attended.</p>
<p>While our school is not “famous,” it may be already familiar to many adcoms; however, this profile would give any unfamiliar reader a very good idea of the level of academic preparation offered, the seriousness of the community about education and the difficulty of achieving high grades at this school.</p>
<p>Our small school in a small town sends numerous kids each year to HYPS/AWS and other next-level down but top tier schools. I’m going to believe our GC and xiggi that the School Profile is important.</p>
<p>jmmom I sure hope that you are correct and that the profile does matter, and matter a great deal, bcs that will help my son. Our hs also sends to ivies and many other excellent schools. The point I am making is that kids at less competitive schools, but with higher gpas and lower sats often get into some schools, and those from a more competitive hs do not bcs the higher gpa is not there.</p>
<p>How’s this for extra credit?</p>
<p>One teacher at my kids’ school gave extra credit points (3) added directly on to the final term average for the students who did not use their three allotted bathroom passes that grading period! My kids always had top averages in the class anyway, yet they wouldn’t dare go to the bathroom for fear of losing those 3 free points. Besides, people who had “B” averages could be brought up to an “A” just for having strong bladders! Many kids made sure not to drink too much liquid during the day in order to preserve those precious extra credit points! It’s a wonder that many of them did not develop bladder infections that semester.</p>
<p>The same teacher awarded points for canned goods brought in for donation to the local soup kitchen. Some of the students came from low income families and barely had the money to feed themselves, much less to buy food for others. It turned out to be “bought extra credit.” Then, that teacher actually received recognition for her classes having contributed the most cans to the food drive! </p>
<p>I have a problem with any extra credit being awarded that has nothing to do with the subject matter of the class. I also believe that it should be something readily available and offered to every student in the class.</p>
<p>Thank goodness that the school does weight honors and AP classes; otherwise, everyone would have an extremely high class rank. Only the top 5% of the students seem to really challenge themselves with the maximum AP load, so they do stand out easily in the end. (and, the AP teachers seem to frown on extra credit - their students learn to work hard to meet the challenge instead of relying on “bladder points”)</p>
<p>parentofteen - Well, we thought we’d seen everything! I’d say that your story makes my blood boil, but I’m afraid I might lose extra credit points for having the wrong blood pressure :eek: </p>
<p>I’m curious whether parents (or students) bring such things to the attention of the school administration and, if so, whether they are given any attention. Would you say that this school is not very “academically oriented”, for lack of a better term? In a school like ours, such inequities/silliness would be quickly flushed out as the school is very protective of its academic standing.</p>
<p>Yay for flushing out bladder points! Could not resist. :)</p>