Colleges normally have the expectation that high school graduates learned something in high school, though they should recognize that some high school graduates are more or less advanced than others. A sensible college would allow for different placement of entering students based on what they know from high school, so that students are neither overwhelmed by being in too advanced a course nor bored with wasting their time and tuition in a course that they already know well.
It looks like the college in question is one with such low admission standards that even its engineering students are usually unprepared to start in calculus 1, so that its norm is to start engineering students in precalculus (with some in even lower math), and that a student with a good AP calculus score is an extreme outlier.
Pre-calc means different things in different schools. But it should pretty much be a combination of Algebra 2 and Analytic Geometry. Some kids take these in 8th or 9th grade, a lot more take them in 10th grade, but even if taken in junior year of HS for kids who take AP calc in senior year, for too many students this is long since forgotten material. Some math skills are more easily forgotten than others, especially when they have not been used in a few years. Especially when the math is taught poorly - for the only intention of passing the exam at the end of the semester.
I can understand that colleges want to make sure students have a strong enough foundation in math to be ready for calc. But a college that is not flexible enough and that wants students to waste their time taking an entrance placement exam for material they have clearly mastered is doing a serious disservice to those who are ready to progress to real analysis.
The college doesn’t want to fail the kids who are not ready, nor do they want to refuse admission to these tuition-paying students. So they came up with a one-size-fits-all solution, that brings everyone down to the lowest level.
OP, if your D can’t strive for a better college, and isn’t willing to stand up and fight to change a stooopid policy, then she should suffer the consequences of repeating the pre-calc class. Seems like a waste to me for someone who was smart enough to get a 5 on the AP calc BC exam. Is there a freshman advisor/dean she could talk to, or perhaps a chair of the math department? Exceptions are made to policies all the time in college.
Has she actually gotten the scores yet? It sounds like the ALEKS test which helps the school determine which level of math to place her in. Sometimes an AP score will override the ALEKS score. My guess is that she may not have done as poorly on it as she suspected.
The question was from me in advising my daughter on the wisdom of going against this her very first term for a class she should do well in when there is no true benefit to skipping it other than not having to do the work. They have already told her she ‘can’ skip it, but they were so negative about it that I just wanted some opinions. Thanks everyone for weighing in.
She got into several “better” colleges. However, with better comes a pricetag that will put us in debt over 100,000 in excess of latech and we have another child to pay for as well. She is going into Nanoscience, which has limited school options and doesn’t even exist for undergraduates in South Carolina. Latech was the only out of state school to give her enough scholarship to be affordable. VA tech, NC State, and SUNY Poly scholarships did nothing except offset small need based student loan. Part of the lack of choices and scholarships is her own doing for not applying, not working hard on apps, and not working harder on SAT. I don’t see going into such a debt when she didn’t try herself.
Also, she took calc in 11th grade. This year the only math available that she hadn’t taken were things like everyday stats so she took AP computer science instead. Long gap with no math, so she will definitely need to review things, but that is why she wants to take calc 1 even though AP gives her credit for it.
She should not take pre-calc, but since she only took AB and not BC, and since she has had no math for a year, she is right thinking she should take calc in college. She will likely find others in her class who have also previously taken AP calc AB, and find there is more in college.
DD took AP Calc BC in 11th grade, and Multivariable Calc in 12th grade (and got straight A+). At the suggestion of her HS multi teacher, she contacted the math department at Stanford who told her they’d let her use the AP credit to place out of Calc, but they recommended she re-take multivariable calc in college - where she was in with lots of upperclassmen). She re-took it and only got a 91 the second time around.
@scmom2017 - you should be very proud of your D . It sounds like she has considered the possibility of skipping calc, for the obvious benefit of freeing up her schedule to take something else, but she is also considering the advice of her college professors. Your D will be fine.
My Chem E major D goes to Purdue and took Calc BC as a junior. When she was accepted she had to take the ALEKS test. If this is the test it is given on line and given to all students who go to this university. If this is the test check with the university and see if she can retake it. At many universities this can be done you just have to wait 24 hours between the tests.
Repeating a class she already knows well is a waste of a schedule space that could be used (now or later) for an interesting free elective (either a more advanced course in her major, or any course of interest outside of her major).
If she is at Louisiana Tech, here are the catalog course descriptions for math courses:
The catalog lists Math 240 as precalculus. The syllabus lists Math 240 as mostly precalculus with a beginning introduction to calculus. Math 241 and 242 continue from there. Note that a calculus book by Stewart is one of those used (a variant of such is sometimes used in AP calculus courses these days).
The old final exams do not appear to be easily findable in a web search, but she can try asking the department for some sample exams in those courses to check her knowledge with.
Our son would not repeat but he is a fairly strong math student.
I think it is standard in many public universities to encourage students to drop back a little, or take a placement test, for math in certain majors. It makes sense because it’s foundational in nature but sometimes it goes a little overboard imho. On the other hand there are students who fall through the cracks and then they are shut out from certain STEM majors (not a good outcome obviously).
Luckily I knew this before my son went to Preview at UF (probably thanks to some parents here) because the adviser tried to put him back in Calc 1. This happened despite the fact that he had a very good grade in Calc 1 FROM UF that he received as part of online dual enrollment. Nevertheless that was the advice. He held his ground, thankfully, and went on to do fine in Calc 2.
I would be prepared to do tutoring/study supplement groups for Calc 1. Tell her DO NOT get behind.
D had AP (AB) Calc senior year and nonetheless took Calc first semester frosh year. She said after the first couple of weeks most of the material was new to her. At the same time, she was really glad she had a (relatively) easy A that first semester. She’s since moved on in college math very successfully.
"They heavily tested on Matrices. Not sure why, but maybe somehow they use it a lot. She hasn’t done them since 7th grade, so totally wasn’t prepared for it. "
I have a 9th grader in Algebra II and they are using matrices quite frequently, If your daughter hasn’t had them since 7th grade (and I’m assuming Algebra I), is it possible that math curriculum has changed at one point and this particular university is finding out that there are some students who may not have been exposed to certain standards the professors feel are necessary to master for the Cal I class?
^I wouldn’t think matrices would be critical for Calculus I, though. I never saw one until I took Linear Algebra, which was AFTER taking Calculus I, II and III.
Matrices are used in solving coupled linear differential equations, in numerous applications in physics, in quantum mechanics (very heavily there ), and in a number of engineering courses. If your daughter covered matrices in 7th grade, she may not have had the depth of coverage that the college thinks is important. Also, they may want the students to have internalized the concepts, so that they can use them at any point in the future. Do they have a later course in linear algebra that is required for engineering majors?
I can’t speak to your daughter’s specific situation, but I can say that students at my university are very strongly advised to take the math course that the placement test suggests, rather than the one that appears to be the next in the sequence based on their high school course work, or even the one that is a single course repeat.
Also, if your daughter did not do especially well on the SAT math section, in my opinion, this would be even more reason to be cautious about the math placement.
I think that she will fiind the college level "pre-calculus class will go much faster and further into depth than any HS math class .Especially if her score on the test is below the threshold for jumping to the next level. Is the college U of Chicago by chance? DS did not want to take their placement tests either, but they are given for a reason.
I think the college has more knowledge of how well students may do in their college engineering classes than you or your DD does.
It will not do her any good to avoid taking a class that is highly recommend for engineering majors.
@scmom2017 a 680 math SAT and a 5 on AP AB Calc are not such overwhelming math prodigy qualifications that a college will necessarily feel compelled to ignore the less-than-passing score on the placement exam and their published procedures to accommodate your daughter. If taking the lower level class does not interfere with the proscribed order of classes that she needs to take to complete her anticipated major on time, I would suggest that she just get a great grade in the easy class and the boost it will give to her GPA.
), and in a number of engineering courses. If your daughter covered matrices in 7th grade, she may not have had the depth of coverage that the college thinks is important. Also, they may want the students to have internalized the concepts, so that they can use them at any point in the future. Do they have a later course in linear algebra that is required for engineering majors?