5 x 3 = 15

Forgive me if there’s a thread on this already but people must have seen the test marked wrong because 5 x 3 was written as three 5’s instead of five 3’s. And the second problem is marked wrong for the same reason, the student made an array of six 4’s instead of four 6’s. [url=<a href=“https://medium.com/i-math/why-5-x-3-5-5-5-was-marked-wrong-b34607a5b74c#.jcjcu4yc2%5DHere%5B/url”>https://medium.com/i-math/why-5-x-3-5-5-5-was-marked-wrong-b34607a5b74c#.jcjcu4yc2]Here[/url] is the most reasoned defense I’ve found of why the problems are marked wrong and I find it infuriating.

To me, the defense is idiotic and it even says that: “If the teacher has already taught the commutative property of multiplication (the law that says a x b = b x a), then this is a fine substitution to make.” Or, in simple words, the answer is correct but it’s marked wrong, which means this isn’t math but a reading quiz which ignores the basic rules of math; commutation is the most basic law of addition and multiplication and is what separates those operations from subtraction and division. That means, to me, this is an example of poorly written crap testing: if you don’t want people to use commutation, then say that because the entire field of mathematics depends on using what is known UNLESS it is specifically excluded. This fundamental of math (and physics) is what makes it interesting and hard; to prove things, you have to show this is the only possible answer or you need to exclude all the other cases, even the absurd ones.

Mathematics works by picking away at the cases. A famous example is Fermat’s Last Theorem: people first excluded n=3 and then a bunch and then an actual solution is derived using a bunch of weird techniques creatively applied because no one said the problem had to be limited to basic algebra but rather was open to creative solution. A more important example is the entire field of set theory: the entire axiomatic structure is designed to define the limits of what nature excludes, meaning a naive universal set. If they didn’t state the specific limiting requirements of a set, then it could be anything even though that “anything” would contain paradoxical contradictions. In physics, a famous example is renormalization: if you don’t think about the denominator going all the way toward 0, meaning distances become infinitely small, then you’re just excluding all the hard or even impossible cases without a bleeping reason. Or in the news this past week, a possibly complete Bell’s Theorem test: back in the 1960’s John Bell showed that if you add up the probabilities from entanglement experiments then classical physics says the result would be this and quantum says it would be this. For decades people have been coming up with better and better tests even though each test shows the same result, that the probabilities always match quantum (and thus exceed what classical physics allows). Why bother? Because just like in this simple math problem, if it’s not excluded, then you have to consider that it’s not absolutely proven.

To me, marking commutation wrong is a sin and, in this case, a sin that covers up the original sin of not stating mathematically what was excluded. The importance of clearly excluding or including operations and characteristics is a far more important math lesson, one the teachers and writers of this test don’t grasp. Sadly, the defense I link to also gets this wrong by citing Javascript: the reason “4” is not 4 is defined in the language rules that you learn, meaning it’s specifically stated as an exclusion that while the value of “4” equals 4 the quote marks surrounding 4 define it as a string which may take other values and that is not the same as the value 4. You don’t learn Javascript without learning that. In fact, you can’t learn any computer language without learning that. It’s as basic as knowing you can’t switch order in subtraction.

The problem with this math test isn’t the answer but the wording of the test itself. It tests what the teacher says the words mean: that “using the repeated addition strategy” somehow in this case excludes the basic operation of commutation. That isn’t math.

The JavaScript example was a pretty bad analogy. Javascript can convert between strings and numeric types because it’s dynamically typed. Many languages aren’t. In those languages “4” and 4 aren’t equal.

I understand marking down the array one because a 4x6 array isn’t the same as a 6x4 array. The first one is more concerning since presumably students learned the commutative property of addition earlier.

In my book a 4x6 array is exactly the same as 6x4 it’s just a rotation. Our kids learned multiplication from day one by looking at arrays - egg cartons! 12-packs! Window mullions! So that they understood from day one that multiplication is communicative and that 3x5=5x3. I hope no teacher my kids had would have marked this down. Though they did not like it when my oldest would answer the question, “What strategy did you use?” with “I just saw the answer in my head.”

My spouse refers to this type of thing as “social compliance math.” I agree, it’s silly. And I sympathize with mathmom. QMP once answered a question “How did you get this answer?” with “By thinking about it.” :slight_smile:

This makes me so sad. I love, love, love math. I hate, hate, hate making it so bleeping difficult for kids to do. Sorry, but 3 5’s and 5 3’s always have and always will total 15. Arriving at the correct answer for 3 x 5 does not depend on whether one should be adding together 3 5’s or 5 3’s … it depends on understanding that one adds together 5 3’s … or 3 5’s … and gets an answer of 15. Please don’t tarnish the lovely truth of the answer, which is always 15, by covering it with b.s. tied to how one is “supposed to” interpret the question.

I truly do not understand the point to it. Other than to make kids hate math as much as their teachers tell them THEY hate math.

Furthermore, it’s worth looking at the link the OP provided. If you see the array as 6 fours instead of 4 sixes, I think it is just because you suffer from horizontal bias. :slight_smile:

I confess that I would also have added 5 threes, because my brain likes to make it as easy as possible. It is intuitive to me to choose the method that requires the fewest steps (which explains my problem with Rube Goldberg assignments!).

One of the reasons I think our elementary school actually did a pretty good job with math (even though the official curriculum changed at least three times) was that year after year kids when polled for the yearbook actually did say that their favorite subject was math.

Can’t help but think it’s just a plot to undermine anything intellectual.

Please don’t go into wacko conspiracy theories.

^I’m glad that my kids don’t have to learn these “Common Core Math Problems!”

^ Truth. Heck, I’m glad I didn’t have to learn them. If they’re actually teaching that 5x3 means five 3’s rather than three 5’s, then the 5+5+5 answer was “wrong,” but I do not see why you would teach that. I wish someone teaching this stuff would chime in here and explain (or try to) what the purpose is of trying to keep kids from using the commutative property.

In my book, they’re not exactly the same. A rotation doesn’t preserve equality. A 4x6 matrix and a 6x4 matrix are not the same at all. PS, multiplication is commutative sometimes. But sometimes not. Depends what you’re multiplying. If matrices, not.

I really don’t think this is a Common Core issue. This is about teachers who don’t know their subject and follow the poorly/rashly written textbooks to the letter without using any critical thinking of their own.

ETA If this was a matter of preference, i.e, if the teacher had instructed the students to follow that particular order of the factors for a specific reason, it would have been fine to write a note on the student’s homework to that effect as a reminder but never to mark it wrong flat like that.

I’ll take some heat for this, but I’ll try anyway.

When it’s done correctly (we must always keep that caveat), the goal during these early stages of common core math is not simply to give kids tools for solving problems. You already know that. Adding threes or fives or filling out matrices are highly inefficient tools for problems like these. The adult tool in this situation is a memorized multiplication table. If your only goal was to teach kids how to solve the problem, you’d drill the kid on that.

The real goal at this level is to create the kind of facility with numbers (i.e., deep understanding) that kids of earlier generations have lacked.

IMPORTANT! I am probably not referring to you folks when I speak of earlier generations. I’m referring to the kids you went to school with who sat in the back of the room because they just didn’t get it. The kids who (at my school anyway) retake pre-algebra as college freshmen because they just never got it. There are a LOT of those kids. They’re not like you and me. Ever see someone hit the wrong key while doing a problem on the calculator, but then not realize that the result couldn’t possibly be correct? It’s because they really don’t get it. They never developed a facility with numbers.

One way of instilling a facility with numbers is to teach kids multiple ways to approach a problem. What we’re seeing on this test is just one of those ways. After the kid masters this one, they’ll move on to another one. Maybe it’s the one where we add three fives instead of five threes. Or maybe they already learned that (since they seem to know about arrays also) and another question on the test will generate an answer like three fives instead of five threes. There are other ways to do this stuff too that look really weird to adults. They’re just other ways of understanding how numbers fit together.

A lot of kids will understand math better if they learn it this way. And when at last they learn their times tables (which they will; don’t worry) they might actually make sense.

But there is the obvious problem. Smart kids see all the different ways of adding almost instantly. The facility comes very easily. Those kids are (I assume) more like you and me. And maybe the kid in the viral image. (Can’t tell.) They don’t need all those extra weeks of practicing stuff, because they do get it.

Without completely realizing it, when people get upset with the common core, it’s often because they are sharing the frustration felt by the smart kids. It’s a legitimate frustration. It’s entirely possible that the smart kids are going to get so bored with math that they’ll be the ones spending high school in the back of the room.

Aboutthesame–I’m NOT a wacko conspiracy theorist. Far from it. But it’s a cold day in hell that 3.x 5 or 5 x 3 equals 15 gets marked wrong. Sorry.

My original point was the problem actually only tests whether you read “using the repeated addition strategy” somehow means you can’t also use basic laws of math like commutation, that you can only read this problem one way, which is that the order in which the numbers are listed is what matters. That’s a bad lesson. A really bad lesson because you can’t solve actual puzzles or problems if you don’t play with the bits, if you don’t switch things around and try different approaches. A famous example is you are given 9 dots and are asked to connect them with 3 non-intersecting lines. You can’t do it if you stay within the dots but if you draw outside the apparent limit it becomes easy.

As for matrices, if you can’t remember that order matters, that’s a different problem, one that you learn when actually multiplying or dividing matrices, not when you’re just listing an array to show you can make six 4’s or four 6’s. I find the idea noxious that somehow learning to read 5 x 3 in that exact way and only in that exact way leads you inexorably to understanding programming or, well, anything else at all.

To me 5 x 3 = give me a 5 three times - a 5 and a 5 and a 5 = give me five of the 3s - 3 and 3 and 3 and 3 and 3.
Reading 5 x 3 does not give me the syntax. So how can either be wrong?

I agree that saying 5 x 3 means five 3s, BUT NOT three 5s, is idiotic and won’t help a student learn to program or, well, anything else.

@gouf78 : Apologies. I agree with you.

@WasatchWriter : WHAT? I appreciate your effort, but what you wrote makes no sense.