5 x 3 = 15

I think there are many useful advances in teaching number concepts and arithmetic. To me, the issues in teaching math, beginning in particular with algebra and then trigonometry, revolve around a mistaken notion that kids need to “understand” and the ideas that we teach “understanding” by testing for what kids don’t know and, in particular, by testing with “word problems” or their equivalent that require kids to identify concepts, label and then manipulate them symbolically. Other countries don’t do this; they believe most people can’t “get” math but that many, many can learn how to do math. These countries, which include our Asian competitors, test what you know, which in most cases consists of demonstrating that you in fact can do the problems assigned to you or demonstrated in class. I think - and I’ve mentioned this before - that testing for what kids don’t know, for how well they can “apply” concepts is extremely demoralizing. And our society compounds the problem by labeling all other methods as mere “rote”. Well, mere rote works better for nearly everyone.

I also wonder - and I may have mentioned this other times as well - why we don’t teach arithmetic and then algebra, etc. with more history and with more tricks. One of my favorite things to demonstrate to a kid is the story of Gauss as a kid when the teacher asked the class to add the first 100 numbers and he did it by realizing that 1 + 100 = 101 and 99 + 2 = 101 and that’s true for every pair and there are 50 pairs so 5050. (As a note, the usual way to write this out is to say 100 pairs and then divide by 2, meaning you write out all the numbers from 1 to 100 and pair them. That makes it easier to figure out the general equation.) And a neat thing is if you sum up to an odd, just start at 0 and make pairs. Cool trick. And as I noted, you can show how it becomes an equation you can memorize - rote! - and apply all over. I love when a kid sees that an equation means it’s the same thing done every time and this is just how we write that method down. Then they get the concept of algorithm: it’s just a method you write down so when people say “equation” they’re really saying a bunch of operations you string together. Kind of like how you get through your day at school can be described as an algorithm: you go here, do this for this long, etc. The more you do this, the more math and numbers becomes a “language” used to describe stuff that happens and just not something you fail at. You can be fairly bad or fairly good at Spanish and the same is true of math.

Heck, when I was a kid and we had to memorize times tables I thought it was such a bore that I figured out how to multiply any 2 digit numbers. At the time I was fascinated by numbers and took a sheet of paper and wrote out the list of numbers and their squares and saw the difference always rises by 2 and then it became obvious that, well, for 92 squared, you square 90, which is 8100 and then figure where you are on that ladder which goes up by 2. That was just (2 x 90) x 2 - or 360 - and then 4 or 8464 . If it were 94 squared, the process is just 8100 + (2 x 90) x 4 + 16. There are many tricks like this. I figured the same thing out for cubes but it took way more steps because the difference between cubes doesn’t reduce to 3 as quickly. You can see the only “realization” was that you double whatever number you’re starting with and multiply it by the number of steps you need. You can also go backwards from any number and it works for longer numbers but they get hard to keep in your head. My point - and I was never all that good at math - is that tricks are really useful and they reveal a lot about numbers and they help you overcome the basic fears about calculation. Write 77 squared on a board and that’s intimidating. And so they teach you all these estimation/guesstimation stuff rather than actual tools for actually solving things. I got away with estimations for years because I knew how to go from 70 squared up and 80 squared down to 77 squared and could give the exact answer in a few seconds with a pencil (or my head if I concentrated - which I’m not good at and I can’t manipulate things in my head like real math whizzes can). I always thought they’d be better off teaching basic stuff out of one of those 101 Math Trick books, just as I thought the best way to learn physics was from a book of physics tips and tricks.

Being able to parrot that 5x3 is 15, without being able to apply that factoid to an actual situation in the world, is useless. It’s useless to know the times table, if you can’t apply the concept of multiplication to real problems in the real world.

In life, people are not going to hand you a worksheet and ask you to spout out multiplication facts. Rather, they’re going to ask you how much 5 hamburgers cost, if each one is $3. And if you can’t apply the concept of multiplication to that kind of problem, it makes no difference whether you know your times tables and you might as well not have bothered memorizing it.

By the way, I’m a homeschooler who used Singapore math. It’s the opposite of just memorizing factoids. Rather, students are expected to set up and solve word problems.

^And the kid who wrote that homework sheet could answer that problem.

This story really got to me!!! I will only say that I am glad my last will be graduating this year. The math and the steps that they teach get wackier each year. If I had small kids I would probably homeschool them. In our state they have changed certification so that you can be certified in everything k-8, which is a problem. Growing up, once you reached 4th grade you had a dedicated math teacher, who usually had a degree in math. I’m sorry, we are in a good district, and none of my kids teachers for the most part have been good in math. I became so flustered that I went online ordered some of the old harcourt brace math books I had growing up. These districts need to stop trying to make math subjective. I say that as a person with a background in mathematics. This just needs to stop!

“For example, 3 bundles of 5 bananas is different from 5 bundles of 3 bananas although they total to the same number of bananas. Their structures are different.” That is the point.

So?

The question doesn’t ask the student to arrange the bundles. It asks to find out how many total bananas there are. how they’re bundled doesn’t change the answer.

Aboutthesame–I’m NOT a wacko conspiracy theorist. Far from it. But it’s a cold day in hell that 3.x 5 or 5 x 3 equals 15 gets marked wrong. Sorry.>>>>>>>

There were two parts to the problem.
It was marked partially wrong, if I remember correctly. 15 was correct but the “illustration” part of the problems were incorrect.

The question doesn’t ask the student to arrange the bundles. >>>>>>>>>>

But it kinda does. There were two parts to the problem.

“Use the repeated addition stategy to solve 5 x 3.” Reading left to right this means 5 (3’s) therefore 3+3+3+3+3; the student wrote out 3 (5’s) or 5+5+5 which is not what was asked. If it had said …solve 3 x 5, then that would have been correct.The second part of the problem was simply 5 x 3 = _____ and the student wrote in “15” which is correct.
The student got marked -1 off the problem not a big X which would have signified it being totally wrong.

The array problem also was illustrated “backwards” with 6 lines of 4 marks each when it had asked for 4 x 6; again, read left to right and draw an array that is 4 groups of six marks, although, as stated, one can rotate the “cookie sheet” to make it the other way. I presume they had been taught the accepted direction to draw them, i.e. each group horizontally.

Perhaps this helps children who struggle somehow, I don’t know. It doesn’t seem all that “out there” to me.

Now, y’all tell me …perhaps I’m incorrect in the simplification of reading left to right and solving???

I go back to my earlier statement. When I see 5x3, do I see Five (5) taken times Three (x3) or do I see Five times (5x) Three (3). I am reading left to right in both scenarios. The syntax is missing; it is commutative.

I see no reason why 5x3 should “mean” five 3’s rather than three 5’s. If that is actually being taught, I think it’s extremely stupid.

As I recall, my son got marked incorrect for a problem like this in 2nd grade, long before the advent of Common Core. I think it’s more the result of elementary teachers for the most part being people who likes reading & writing in school better than they liked math and science. They read equations as sentences, rather than as syntax. In fact, the old pre-Common Core elementary math textbooks here didn’t call them “equations,” their terminology was “number sentences.” Common Core teaching is supposed to use the actual mathematical terminology.

I think a 2nd or 3rd grade teacher might understand math in the way the paper is marked – trying to make sense of the problem as a sentence, even though it isn’t a word problem. Teachers are actually having to get more math training to have a better facility with math under Common Core. There are a lot of poor implementations of Common Core out there, so this could be one.

There are some good things about Common Core math, and I think @WasatchWriter did a pretty good job of explaining the issue it is supposed to address in post #14. There are many adults who can “do” long division, but can’t figure out how to set up the equation given some sort of real-life problem. Similarly, there are many kids who do fine at the mechanics of math in high school, but have a lot of trouble using, say, trigonometry when it’s applied to physics.

Common Core intends to help kids understand what math is for, not just the rote ways of solving equations. It remains to be seen what percent of the population really can handle math in that way.

However, for the really advanced math kids, they mostly always understood how word problems translated to math problems. The teachers and school districts talk about how the “increased rigor of Common Core math will really challenge all students, including the advanced ones.” The problem is that many districts have slowed down the math path for advanced students because the teachers are worried that even advanced students can’t handle the increased conceptual level. However, not being advanced math students themselves for the most part, they don’t understand that the really mathy students were always able to translate from multi-step word problems to equations fairly easily. Our district has a fair number of bored kids who previously would have done Algebra I in 7th grade. The earliest they see Algebra I content now is the 2nd half of 8th grade.

I liked the “Number Talks” that our elementary schools implemented. The goal is to get students comfortable with using multiple ways to solve the same problem using mental math. The kids sit on the floor in a group by the front without paper. The teacher puts an equation on the board that’s appropriate for the grade level. For example, two digit addition for some grades and two digit multiplication for other grades. The kids hold up fingers to indicate how many ways they’ve thought of for solving the problem mentally. For example, subtracting from one number and adding to the other to make numbers easier to add. Or, using distributive property, etc. The teacher calls on students to have them explain their solutions. That way, the kids see multiple solutions and the advanced students typically come up with more complex ways to solve problems. This does take more training for the teachers, because the strategies kids use might be things kids don’t officially learn until a higher grade level.

“This reminds me of the famous story about Carl Friedrich Gauss summing an arithmetic sequence (often said to be the numbers from 1 to 100) by pairing the numbers at the beginning and the end, and determining the number of pairs. He obtained the answer within a very short time after the problem was announced, and placed his slate with a single number (the correct answer) on the teacher’s desk.”

FYI - some companies use this as an interview question. :wink:

I see no reason why 5x3 should “mean” five 3’s rather than three 5’s. If that is actually being taught, I think it’s extremely stupid.>>>>>>>>

3 x 5 is three 5’s. 5 x 3 is five 3’s. Easy peasy.

It seems like that is the intent. To make the child visualize the two scenarios separately, even though their bottom line is the same number. I could be light years off base though. Not that it has ever happened before. :))

“This reminds me of the famous story about Carl Friedrich Gauss summing an arithmetic sequence (often said to be the numbers from 1 to 100) by pairing the numbers at the beginning and the end, and determining the number of pairs. He obtained the answer within a very short time after the problem was announced, and placed his slate with a single number (the correct answer) on the teacher’s desk.”

FYI - some companies use this as an interview question. >>>>>>>>

Do they get to use a calculator? :smiley:

Our district has a fair number of bored kids who previously would have done Algebra I in 7th grade. The earliest they see Algebra I content now is the 2nd half of 8th grade.>>>>>>>>>>

Yikes. Seventh grade Algebra I was on the cusp of becoming common when my kids were coming through. And my baby is only 28.

I never understood why this is supposed to be a difficult idea to come up with independently. I know I’d already used it myself for years when someone told me the “trick.”

Ynotgo, I can’t tell you why it is thought to be a difficult idea to generate, except that I would guess that teaching mathematics as something that has to be done “this way” and not an equivalent “that way” tends to inhibit a lot of people from using common sense in a numerical context. It may make people feel that there is just one right way to approach a problem, and you have to be taught the right way, rather than figuring things out for yourself.

Aside from that, Gauss came up with the idea when he was about 9. I think that’s pretty impressive. Based on the memorial by Baron von Waltershaus, Gauss himself enjoyed telling the story about this. And Gauss was very, very smart. So I think it is possible that more modern approaches to arithmetic/mathematics lay the groundwork better for thinking in this way than the approaches that were contemporaneous when Gauss was a child.

There is an element in this approach that I can’t exactly describe, but I think it involves giving oneself authorization to approach problems in an “operational” way (for want of a better term).

“I never understood why this is supposed to be a difficult idea to come up with independently.”

That’s the whole point - it should not be a difficult idea for an adult with an average HS math applying for a non-technical position. Calculators are not provided.

I see no reason why 5x3 should “mean” five 3’s rather than three 5’s. If that is actually being taught, I think it’s extremely stupid.>>>>>>

I do agree. 5 x 3 seems very simply to say “write a 5 three times”. Why it’s the opposite, I cannot answer. All I was surmising is that that must be the way it is being taught.

I thought at first this belonged in the “Why is this a thread?” thread.