Most of the moderators are active in this thread so I’m stepping in to please remind everyone the following:
For further perspective on this, this site assigned CMU a selectivity rank of #21 and Georgia Tech a selectivity rank of #41 when compared to other colleges and universities nationally:
If your son is thinking Oxford or Cambridge for math, the admissions process is something to keep in mind.
For Oxford, you sit for the MAT in late October, interview in December and know if you have an offer by mid-January.
For Cambridge, you have to take the three STEP papers with the last one happening in the summer after HS graduation (I think).
That uncertainty with the STEP results is why my son chose to apply to Oxford versus Cambridge.
I believe that having the required APs in the bag for Oxford at the time of application is an advantage for US applicants. Having 5s in say Calc BC, Physics C (both) and CSA might make the difference in getting shortlisted for interview or not if your MAT score is on the borderline.
And as a former “bus driver”, you are aware of the challenges associated with the service academy nomination and admissions process. If you are in CO, I would assume that there are lots of applicants for USAFA noms? I’m on my MOC’s panel on the East Coast and we hardly ever get more than five USAFA applicants. Lots for USMA/USNA.
As you try to piece together the profile of a 75th percentile applicant, you will hear a lot about holistic admissions and context. One datapoint that selective colleges use for understanding context is the “Landscape” score. I have found very little information about this, but this old article from the Wall Street Journal was very helpful.
After the College Board abandoned its ‘adversity score’ for high schools based on socioeconomic factors The Wall Street Journal obtained the list and created a database of adjusted SAT scores for 10,353 schools
https://www.wsj.com/articles/what-happens-if-sat-scores-consider-adversity-11574773201?st=GSnGCD&reflink=share_mobilewebshare
CB didn’t abandon this, they just changed the name to Landscape and it does place test scores in context of the student’s HS and lived experience. Landscape also gives an indicator score for both the HS and the student’s home census tract.
Thanks for additional clarification! I think the WSJ used the word abandon and was brought over automatically when i pasted the link. The data is from 2019, but allows you to look up your high school. Do you know of any way to see an updated landscape score for your high school?
I don’t think that info is public, but you might ask your HS counselor.
For neighborhood information, a convenient place to look for information on your census tract is https://censusreporter.org which shows information from the census and American Community Survey at both the census tract level, and block group level (slightly smaller granularity than census tract).
Excellent response. Do you know whether this timeline holds for all STEM majors at Oxford and Cambridge or is it specific to math?
With regards to APs, he’ll have Calc BC, Physics C, and CSA complete by the end of his junior year.
Yes, you are correct that USAFA noms are difficult in Colorado.
Can only speak to Oxford. @Twoin18 might know more on Cambridge.
The general outline I gave above holds true for all Oxford STEM related courses.
Anyone applying for a Maths related course (Straight Maths, Straight CS, Maths & CS, Maths & Stats, Maths & Philosophy, CS & Philosophy) will have to take the MAT.
Anyone applying for a Physics related course (Straight Physics or Physics & Philosophy) will have to take the PAT. Engineering Science and Materials Science applicants also have to take the PAT. There is no Oxford specific admissions test for Chemistry.
My son had the same four APs in hand and his Oxford offer for Maths & CS was unconditional by the end of January once he provided AP score reports.
Cambridge requires STEP for the maths degree but not for NatSci or CS (which have pre-interview tests instead). Unlike Oxford, there’s no single subject science at Cambridge. Everyone takes either two sciences plus math, either physical (usually phys+chem but there are geology options) or biological (usually bio+chem).
STEP results come out with A levels in mid August, after the start of term for US semester-based schools. So the timeline is much worse than waiting for AP results in early July and dropping your US backup school (and losing the deposit) then. That makes math a very problematic application for US students unless they are taking a gap year or are so extraordinarily talented that they can excel in STEP as a junior (in which case their offer would be all but automatic).
I’d advise Oxford if you want single science or math (or the combinations with Philosophy). CS you could do either, while broader science is only available at Cambridge.
This is really good insight and certainly makes math tough at Cambridge. Any insight into the process for engineering at each school? Thanks so much.
CO Dad
Process is the same as I mentioned above - submit UCAS by 10/15, sit the PAT, hope to get shortlisted for interview, interview in December, receive offer (hopefully) in mid January.
The only true engineering program at Oxford for undergrads is Engineering Science.
Take a look and see if this might be a fit. Imperial is another strong engineering school in the UK.
Cambridge Engineering has a pretest not STEP, will need Calc BC and both Phys C APs. It’s now a four year course as standard, leading to an MEng:
My son also has AP Stats scheduled for his senior year. Is it worth swapping AP stats for AP Econ (currently scheduled in junior year) to have that AP score in hand as well? Thanks.
CO Dad
I would not do AP Stats after Calc BC as it’s a step down in rigor, which is looked on unfavorably. It also wouldn’t be in any way additive in junior year alongside Calc BC if that’s your Calc sequence. Do MVC instead in senior year, if necessary through dual enrollment.
AP Econ is also unnecessary unless you want to study Econ or PPE (I think like AP Stats it’s not calculus-based so largely irrelevant to study of the subject in college, it’s merely helpful background for an Econ interview), but at least it’s a breadth option.
Agree with @Twoin18 that AP Stats is not regarded as a “serious” math qualification at Oxford for US students.
My son completed CSA in 10th grade and AP Calc BC and Physics C (both) in 11th grade. He also had 5s in US History, English Comp and a 4 in English Lit. The SAT IIs still existed for him so he also had 800s on Math II and Physics. All of these were in hand by the time that he applied to Oxford in October of his senior year in HS.
His only AP classes his senior year were AP Micro/Macro. Oxford never asked to see scores for those as he went unconditional in January after he received his offer due to the CS/Calc/Physics AP scores. He did take an on-line MVC class.
He was also very active in competitive math so he had AMC10/AMC12/AIME scores that he could share along with results from ARML/HMMT/PUMAC. While those don’t count for admissions purposes, it is likely that they helped with shortlisting for interview. He never saw his MAT score as Oxford didn’t automatically send them during his application cycle. Historically at his college there was a “leavers” dinner after exams in the final year where they were roasted by the tutors. Tidbits about their initial admissions process often came out there. Unfortunately that was a casualty of COVID for him.
Twoin18,
Thanks for your response. My son’s primary math sequence is 10th: Calc AB, 11th: Calc BC, 12th: Dual Credit MVC. AP Stats is an elective. The question really was whether there was any advantage to having the AP stats score in hand by end of junior year in favor or AP Micro/Macro. It sounds like neither class moves the needle for Oxford/Cambridge.
CO Dad
HazeGrey,
Thanks. My son has a nearly identical set of APs by year with only a couple exceptions:
He placed nationally in the UKMT competitions in year 9 and year 10 in the UK, but has shown less interest in AMC/AIME this year. In addition, he has GCSE scores in Higher Maths and Further Maths that may be unique for a US student.
CO Dad
