A Dose of Realism, Please?

Applying to College
1

Hi there! I was hoping to get some honest advice/critiques/input/whatnot from the CC community.

I’m hoping to get into top schools, but of course, thousands of equally and more qualified prospective applicants are too. I’m fascinated by political science/ the law (especially constitutional/appellate law) and math and would love to double major in Political Science and Math wherever I end up.

I have a couple specific questions, but if any of you are able to offer any other advice, it would be hugely appreciated.

  1. In Youth and Government, I don’t hold any elected or appointed office, but I am one of the most participatory members of my delegation of roughly 120. I’ve also run for office 3 times and lost each time (the first two were because I was terrified of public speaking; for the last, I was up against a rising senior that everyone knew). Can I pull anything helpful from here?

  2. Where would schools like Yale, Stanford, Berkeley, Georgetown, GWU, American, Brown, UCSD, U. Penn, Northwestern and U. Chicago fall on the reach to safety spectrum? Are there any other schools you think I should look into?

  3. In your eyes, would it be more advantageous to apply early to Stanford/Yale, or to one of the less selective schools?

  4. Is there anything I can do from here?

Thank you all SO much! Stats are below.

**This is all after the second semester of my junior year.

Objective:
SAT I (breakdown): N/A
ACT (breakdown): 36 (35E, 36M, 36R, 35S; 11W)
SAT II: Biology M (760), Math 2 (800)
Unweighted GPA (out of 4.0): 4.0
Weighted GPA: Not sure, but I took 2 AP’s during sophomore year and five this year; also, took 4 Honors courses in total.
Rank (percentile if rank is unavailable): Top 5% of ~700
AP (place score in parenthesis): Biology (4), European History (5)
IB (place score in parenthesis): N/A
Senior Year Course Load: Italian 4 and 5 AP’s (Statistics, U.S. Government, Literature, Physics CM+CEM, CSP/CS)
Major Awards (USAMO, Intel etc.): None, unfortunately.

Subjective:

Extracurriculars (place leadership in parenthesis): Moot Court (3 years, Secretary), Youth and Government (3 years, taking an Appellate Court track), Math Club/Mu Alpha Theta (1 year, Founder & Captain), MUN (1 year, founding Vice President), Long Term Strategic Planning school long-term planning committee, WriterSalon school literary magazine, Journalism (Freshman year, but I am writing for the paper still this year), Debate (Freshman year; the club sort of died)

Job/Work Experience: Paid Tutor with my school’s Study Center

Volunteer/Community service: Negligible.

Hooks: None

2

If you are full pay, American is a safety and GWU a match; the rest are reaches (not sure of your residency for UC schools or California gpa).

3

@roycroftmom Thank you! I am a resident of California, though I am unsure of my UC GPA. For right now, it looks like a 4.44 if I’m calculating it correctly.

If I may, what would it take to move some of those “reaches” down into the “match” category?

4

American apparently does not like being used as a “safety” behind Georgetown. It lists level of applicant’s interest as very important.

UCB and UCLA are probably high matches. Presumably, you applied to more UCs since you are a California resident.

5

Mu is your only math-sci EC? What can you do about that, (since you’re interested in math?) And get some real comm service, not just hours with a school club. I mean both rolling up your sleeves and working with real needs in your area plus seeing what you can do with local politics or some organization (since you’re interested in poli sci.) Advocacy work could be good, but in your own community.

6

@ucbalumnus Thank you so much for the info! How could I demonstrate interest other than by visiting? I definitely don’t want them to feel as if I view them as a safety.

@lookingforward Mu is, unfortunately, but I’ll see what I can do to fix that. Hopefully, we’ll be competing this year and next year as well. As for community service and internships, I was hoping to either intern with the city councilman or volunteer this summer. Thank you!

Also, Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays!!

7

“1) In Youth and Government, I don’t hold any elected or appointed office, but I am one of the most participatory members of my delegation of roughly 120. I’ve also run for office 3 times and lost each time (the first two were because I was terrified of public speaking; for the last, I was up against a rising senior that everyone knew). Can I pull anything helpful from here?”

There’s a lot here to work with. You could write about how the work of government is done not just by the leaders, but by the people actually… doing the work - of which you are one. Skip the parts about running for office 3x and losing (sounds like weak justification), but talk about what you got done even though you weren’t _______(insert leadership position here). Talk about how effective and powerful people behind the scenes can be, that’s much more interesting, unique and advanced than the thousands who talk about their stint as class president. Bonus points for examining how the current work of government is often done by unknown and unsung staffers and comparing your work to theirs.

Also, you still have time to incorporate the use of math in all this. Figure out how you can use analytic tools (statistics, data mining, probability calcs) in your government work. Surely there are problems or issues that would benefit from analysis? Use that data to craft policy, influence people, make change.

8

Schools like Yale, Stanford and Georgetown are reaches for EVERYONE. You perfect scores and straight As with a
rigorous schedule. Academically, you can’t do much better (if any) than that. Yet these schools will decline many people with the same results. Your ECs certainly show dedication to your area of interest. That’s great. I would say spend time writing beautiful essays. Make them interesting and memorable as that and your interviews are the primary opportunities to differentiate yourself from the sea of perfect scores. When it’s all said and done, it will come down to class building. What class are they trying to build in a particular year (geography, ethnicity, different interests, etc.). They know what they can bring you, They will explore what you can bring them.

Should you get declined by one or more of these schools, don’t view it as “you’re not good enough”. It really isn’t about that. Clearly you have the ability to succeed at the top schools in the world. You will quite likely be admitted into several fine schools. All of them would be lucky to have you. It’s just a matter of which one(s) view it that way relative to the rest of the candidate pool.

Best of luck.

9

Older discussion on showing a high level of interest:

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/1626043-ways-to-show-a-high-level-of-applicants-interest.html

10

@milee30 Thank you! I was thinking of maybe doing a polisci-related research paper, and if I could find a way to quantify what I would be writing about, that would hopefully demonstrate my interest in mathematics.

@rickle1 Thank you — you’re too kind. Would it be worth applying SCEA/REA to Stanford or Yale, or would it be more advantageous to apply EA to a few less selective institutions?

@ucbalumnus Thank you so much for the link! It helps a lot.

11

It couldn’t hurt. I don’t think it will greatly change the outcome either way so if you have other schools where EA makes a noticeable difference, then go that route.

12

@rickle1 Okay then, thank you!

13

It seems to me that with your lack of hooks and community service you’d have much better chances applying to Oxford compared to Stanford/Yale and similar. It’s impossibly competitive for unhooked middle class ORMs from CA at top US schools, whereas none of this affects the probability of success at Oxford. Your list is very similar to my S18. I assume you are not seeking substantial financial aid, if you are full pay then Oxford is cheaper than Berkeley when adjusting for the course being 3 years rather than 4.

PPE can be pretty math heavy if you want it to be. The key would be to get all 5s in your APs this year. You can apply in parallel with a US SCEA application. But you’d better be prepared to push your school because they won’t know what they are doing with the test, British-style reference, personal statement, etc.

You don’t list all your APs but I assume Calc BC, English Lang and US History are on there? Those would be the most important, Economics is not a pre-requisite.

14

There is nothing you can do to move HYPSM, Brown, etc…into the match category. They will always be high reaches for everyone. Your strategy of deciding which school to apply EA to is a red flag that you are looking for prestige. They will sense that. You need to show a college why you are a good fit. They will choose students who offer what they are looking for. Applying SCEA is not a good strategy if you are simply hoping to increase your odds at a highly selective college, especially since all of those colleges saw a big increase in the number of early applications. You will have to submit “why this college” essays for almost all of those schools and they all need to be different and unique. You need to understand each of those colleges and know what they are looking for.

U Chicago is very different from Georgetown. American and GWU are your only matches. I do not believe you have any true safeties. AU has a 25.7 acceptance rate and is not a safety. GWU has a 39% acceptance rate and is the closest thing to a safety for you. Those schools will want to see interest too, because they don’t want to be viewed as back ups. You need a true safety school, because matches don’t always come through. Hope that was a helpful dose of realism:-)

15

Yeah you do need some matches and safeties and I’d recommend you focus on poly sci as your ECs are more geared to that. Your best matches would be the UC schools so maybe add one more to UCSD and Berkeley, perhaps Davis. Have you been told you’re ELC, that would guarantee you admission into a UC (though it could be Merced, with your stats I doubt it.). You would typically apply to the college of arts and science to these schools and A&S would have both majors. Another match could be Michigan given they have an excellent A&S school, consider them.

Also, consult Naviance for your hs, for reach/match/safety, e.g. if 95% of applicants with a 36/4.0 get into a particular school, that’s a safety.

16

@Twoin18 Thank you! I have thought about Oxford, but it’s very far away and I’d rather not be abroad for all of my undergrad years. And yes, this year I’m taking US, Lang, BC, Music Theory and Environmental Science.

@Lindagaf It certainly was! I’m concerned though — I’m not looking for prestige, but rather, Yale (and Stanford/UChicago) seems to be more or less exactly what I want out of a college: It seems like it’s the perfect size, places an emphasis on the humanities but has strong STEM programs as well, appears to have a strong residential culture, and I think I’d be able to find people with interests as deep and diverse as my own with relative ease. If I may, what about my strategy indicates that I’m looking for prestige? I definitely don’t want to give the wrong impression. Also, would the University of Washington be considered a safety? Thank you!

@thelonliestmonk Thanks! I was planning on applying to a few more UCs (I didn’t want to put all the schools I’m thinking of up there) and I’ll definitely look into Michigan. What do you mean by ELC? I’ve never heard of that before.

Happy New Year!

17

Michigan is NOT a match! It has a 16% acceptance rate and the OP is out of state. It is another reach. This poster needs safety schools that she likes and can afford. Any college with an acceptance rate of 20% and under is not a safety or a match, IMO. You are a strong student OP, but so are a zillion others. For match schools, look at acceptance rates of maybe above 20% to about 35%. But remember, matches are not safeties. Matches do not always come through. For safeties, look at acceptance rates above 35%, but more likely in 40% range. Remember that many schools with holistic admissions do not like being treated as safeties so you need to show interest.

OP, if smaller size appeals to you, consider some of the LACs. Many of them are the same academic calibre as HYP, and they are focussed on undergrads. A student with your stats could also be in the running for merit aid even at some of the best ones, such as Kenyon and Carleton. Research opportuntiies abound at LACs, because profs only teach undergrads and are happy to provide mentoring and internship opportunities. Classes tend to be small and discussion based. You will get to know your peers and your profs will know your name.

I am a big fan of LACs, and I make no secret of it. If you get into Berkeley for example, you can look forward to a couple of years of huge lecture style classes, and being taught by TAs and not profs. My D has a friend at Cal, her into Intro level class had 1100 kids, not a typo. In contrast, my D attends Bates and her biggest class ever had 60 kids. Most of her classes so far have hovered at 20 or fewer, and she is a sophomore. The prof will always be the teacher at an LAC.

Consider the ones I mentioned already, as well as Macalester, the Claremont Consortium, the Mass Consortium, Swarthmore and Haverford, and the NESCAC colleges, some of which will be safeties for you. Williams, Amherst, Swrthmore, Pomona are easily on par with any top university, as are others. How about Rice U? Great school, though a reach. Bigger than an LAC. How about WUSTL? Has merit for tippy top stduents, but another reach. Consider U of Rochester, which has more of a university feeling that you seem to like, but has about 6000 undergrads and 3000 post grads. That’s a very well-respected school and you would likely get amazing merit aid. Consider Case Western, where you would prob be offered merit also. Those last two are matches. You really need safeties. If you are happy with your publics in CA , you are fine, but as your list is now, I can fully imagine a scenario whereby you may not have a college to attend, or that you are happy with. Luckily, time is on your side.

18

@Lindagaf Thank you so much for the suggestions — it helps a lot. I’m concerned about the size of LACs, as I go to a school of 3000 and I’d certainly prefer to be in the 5-15k range. I knew that classes at the UCs can get huge and are often taught by TAs, but 1100 is insane. Thank you also for delineating reaches/matches/safeties — that’s going to make this process way simpler. Happy New Year!

19

A class of 1100 at UCB can only be CS 61A.

Note that CS has gotten so popular that intro CS courses at many schools have gotten large. Stanford CS 106A and Harvard CS 50 have had enrollments of over 700 recently.

Lower level political science and math courses can also be large, but not that large generally. Upper level courses (particularly math) get smaller, but you should check online class schedules to see if class sizes are listed, rather than going by assumptions.

20

Duke may be a low reach for you.